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H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

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Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#211

Post by taylodl »

tnel77 wrote: post #123
maxerickson wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you expect most people on this website to be rationalist and then you also say that you expect most people on this website to be rationalist.

It’s not perfect, but HackerNews seems to have one of the most intelligent pool of users I’ve had the pleasure of interacting with. It’s not perfect, of course, but the discourse on a HackerNews thread is light years ahead of what you’ll find on Reddit.

With HN it depends on the topic. With Reddit it depends on the subreddit. Both have their high points and their low points. If you take the topics for which HN is very well-behaved and looked at their equivalent subreddits on Reddit, then you'll find they're likewise well-behaved.

In both cases you know exactly where the brush fires are.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#212

Post by mtalantikite »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128
3l3ktr4 wrote: post #81

It's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

>> Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of some diseases. It also prevents other diseases. Isolating animal species, specifically separating their waste, prevents cross-contamination. Google the stories of people getting parasites from lettuce grown on a "small organic farm" downhill from the pig sty. Want to eat raw lettuce and undercooked steak without getting sick? Those p…

> Google the stories of people getting parasites from lettuce grown on a "small organic farm" downhill from the pig sty.

It sounds like the problem is maybe farming of animals in general? Obviously a farm being small and organic doesn't automatically equate with everything being fine. Even on factory farms animal waste seeps into groundwater and can cause tons of environmental issues, which reminded me of a report from last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNutjzkXDqY

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#213

Post by lettergram »

roywiggins wrote: post #146
lettergram wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also has to have some inputs, which come from things like grain. The more interesting part, is imo there will be a lot of nutrition we miss

Much meat already uses grain as a substantial part of its input already...

I know, that's my point. We already have a highly efficient and nutritious way to obtain meat.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#214

Post by lambdaba »

3l3ktr4 wrote: post #81

It's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

> Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

A sweeping statement, that betrays ignorance of the many people that are tremendously helped or healed from terrible illnesses by eating more meat (or even, only meat). I'm not advocating everyone eat only meat, nor do I think most people would want to, but there are also MANY people who would fall gravely ill if they did so.

Again, it's fine to voice an opinion, but this kind of categorical statement that isn't supported by empirical evidence is not. I'm very well acquainted with the subject myself, having dealt with severe autoimmune issues, and if I was forced to eat only plant matter, my health would be completely compromised. It's something I have heard from thousands of others, and if you are so interested I will provide links. There is also "scientific" data to support this, though as someone who has lived through it, I don't care for it, but it exists. Anecdotes, again, by the thousands, many with ex-vegans for whom a plant-based diet took a huge toll.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#215

Post by slowmovintarget »

2024throwaway wrote: post #165
slowmovintarget wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you chow down on a nice plate of grass? Humans can't derive nutrition that way.

This is a valid argument and not at all reductive. Obviously grass is the only plant available to humans to eat. /s

"...eating what the animal would eat..."

There's reason that life on Earth exists in a food chain. In this case many of the animals humans eat consume and digest things we cannot. This particular discussion was about cattle and humans deriving nutrition from the milk they produce and the meat they yield. From that perspective, cows and steers as intermediaries provide such a distinct advantage that genetic mutation that allows some humans to digest cow milk drove the flourishing of those civilizations.

Grazing animals, properly fed (this is what we need to fix), eat mostly grass. We need that middle step. Just like we need the intermediate steps of plants extracting nutrients from the soil and turning sunlight into usable calories for us. We can't eat dirt and drink sunshine, either. Of course those aren't the only things to eat. But that's the argument I was responding to.

The "cut out the middle man" argument really doesn't work. The argument should be "here are better alternatives."

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#216

Post by askonomm »

lm28469 wrote: post #82
askonomm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean juice, right? As far as I know Oat, Soy and Almond contain no milk.

God I hate people using this gotcha... we all know what they mean by alternative milks. Do you also complain about peanut butter ? There is no butter in peanuts

I just don't get why people have to pretend things are what they really aren't.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#217

Post by hollerith »

3l3ktr4 wrote: post #81

It's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

>Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

I have personally been helped by a diet of mostly meat (and frozen raspberries) which I stayed on for a few years. It helped me to stay somewhat productive while I slowly recovered from a complicated illness state.

These years I get most of my protein from beans and almonds, but those foods do subtle cumulative damage to my gut (even if I pre-soak, pressure-cook, then refry the beans and blanch, then toast the almonds) so once a year or so I take a break from them, and since I cannot handle eggs, grains or dairy protein, and since I seem to need a lot of protein, during the breaks I eat a lot of grass-fed lamb.

If I lost access to meat, I would be less healthy.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#218

Post by askonomm »

skhunted wrote: post #100
askonomm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean juice, right? As far as I know Oat, Soy and Almond contain no milk.

You should look up the meaning of the word misnomer and understand how widespread such occurrences are. When that happens you’ll likely reason better and not get sidetracked by pedantic shenanigans.

I suppose you're right. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#219

Post by lm28469 »

kelipso wrote: post #193
dpkirchner wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks going to Mars don't ask me to change the status quo and the status quo must be preserved no matter the consequences!

But I don't see any alternatives being discussed, like say, sky scraping towers of factory farmed cows that take up a square block and can feed hundreds of thousands. Like apparently the only solution is abstention or restriction. Where are the crazy visions of feeding tens of billions of people through some high tech magic whatevers.

What you call "abstention or restriction" in 2024 would be the dream diet of anyone before the 1930s. We're supposedly smart monkey, we should be able to eat 25% less bacon if it means avoiding all these long term issues.

Even pigs know when to stop eating

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#220

Post by pbhjpbhj »

hrrbhgrrggb wrote: post #164
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at Tesco online in UK: there's a soy protein 'mince' a £3.72/kg. Beef or chicken mince at £5. Quorn mycoprotein at £8.33. Beyond Meat at £13. Out of the 5 vegan and 8 vegetarian options, only the soy protein is cheaper than meat. I might replace one meal a week with the soy protein, but I'd be concerned about long term effects of phytoestrogen, especially on growing children? Mind you many foods have some hid…

You wouldn’t use “meat replacements” though you’d just eat a vegetarian diet. If hundreds of millions of Indians can do it, so can westerners.

Change is hard for [some] people. Fail to acknowledge that and you'll fail to foment radical change.

That said, I merely posted this data because I looked it up and found it interesting as a comparison.

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