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Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem like a few protocol fields, but about the entire mechanism of distributing the information and how to get from a request to any one server in the distributed network to the one that actually stores the information you requested (at least looking at the claims in your first patent). I have no idea if there was prior art or how close the procedure they describe was to known storage algorithms in 2000…

>Of course, if indeed AWS came to a very similar implementation themselves, as the jury found, then that further suggests that the idea is not that novel. That wouldn't matter if AWS came to the very similar implementation on their own, after the Plaintiff's patent was issued (and became public information). Patent, unlike copyright, does not allow for independent invention/creation. If you come to, on your own, some…

Yes, it doesn't matter for determining if you are infringing on the patent. But it does matter for (a) the kinds of damages that you can be liable for, and (b) it can matter if you try to attack the patent itself to try to get it invalidated. Patents are only supposed to be granted for non-obvious ideas, so one way of attacking a patent is to show that many people came up with that idea independently, which is a strong argument that the idea doesn't pass the non-obviousness test and can get the patent invalidated.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patents are usually narrowly tailored to a specific part of a design document of a complex system, not the entire thing. The idea is that a "person of ordinary skill in the art" can implement the normal stuff ( ie the current state of the art) around the new innovation, and the new thing gives that system a non-obvious benefit. A lot of research papers are written the same way. They will go into great detail on a spe…

I’m fine with that in research papers. They have a very different goal where practical applications are not necessary yet (or ever in some cases). > The idea is that a "person of ordinary skill in the art" can implement the normal stuff (ie the current state of the art) around the new innovation, and the new thing gives that system a non-obvious benefit. Why specify a protocol at all then? Im sure a person of ordinar…

Have you ever designed a protocol before? I'm not referring to something along the lines of "slap these fields in a JSON" for a service that gets 1 QPS, but an actual wire protocol intended for millions of QPS per endpoint. A good wire protocol is extremely difficult to design, far more difficult than an implementation of that protocol, and involves thinking ahead about all of the possible implementations and faults you will see.

That's why protocols like TCP are designed by huge collaborations of engineering teams across companies, while an individual who knows the protocol spec can implement TCP in a couple of days.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course, if indeed AWS came to a very similar implementation themselves, as the jury found, then that further suggests that the idea is not that novel. That wouldn't matter if AWS came to the very similar implementation on their own, after the Plaintiff's patent was issued (and became public information). Patent, unlike copyright, does not allow for independent invention/creation. If you come to, on your own, some…

Yes, it doesn't matter for determining if you are infringing on the patent. But it does matter for (a) the kinds of damages that you can be liable for, and (b) it can matter if you try to attack the patent itself to try to get it invalidated. Patents are only supposed to be granted for non-obvious ideas, so one way of attacking a patent is to show that many people came up with that idea independently, which is a stro…

Yes, they can be evidence that invalidates a patent if they qualify as prior art.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#214
post #165
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Books are fancy, but let's not mix up progress with being able to live off writing them. We see innovation in open source every day from small startups, from various sized communities, and from hobbyists. That said, the startup selling IP model works somewhat in the pharma sector, but that's patents, and you mentioned books, where the whole IP regulation game got abso-fucking-lutely captured by the industry (with the…

> Books are fancy, but let's not mix up progress with being able to live off writing them. Ok you can substitute this with any type of R&D done by individual or small to large companies. > We see innovation in open source every day from small startups, from various sized communities, and from hobbyists. Open source is only really successful in areas where it's a cost centre. Generally, companies mainly invest it into…

Books are rarely written as solutions to overcome a specific pragmatic problem. (We need a blue LED, sure I'll write a novel series about it! We need walkaway-safe nuclear power plants, let me get my quill! We need to come up with a delivery mechanism for mRNA vaccines ... hm ... order the ink and warm up the presses!)

Sure, books are great at popularizing ideas, serve as a unit of discourse, like papers, journals, conferences and whatnot.

But when Dickens wanted to make money he wrote A Christmas Carol not A Teatrise On Socioeconomic Inequalities for Saturnalia. (And most likely he had a bigger impact this way.)

> To be fair though I don't really understand why do people care that much about being able to use Mickey Mouse in their content.

I think people somewhat rightfully feel that the social contract has been unfairly altered. The deal was that Mickey gets a temporary monopoly, and we respect it so we then get it for "free".

In a hypothetical bleak grey philosophical vacuum the first time someone draws a mouse what would be the fair thing? Respecting authorship (so no plagiarism), giving credit, sure, that's the minimum, but can others copy it, add some colors and pizzazz and become the new creative king/queen of the hill? (One one hand, maybe it would give society the best stuff, the most amazing variations of all the themes. On the other hand maybe artists would burn out in 2 seconds and nobody would ever even dare to try to come up with anything original, because the game is to derive better derivatives.)

... but I don't think so. If it would be that easy to turn anything up to 11 in a second, then we would see it all the time. (Instead what we see is conservative reboots/remakes/remixes that fit the current mainstream. With its pros and cons! It's important to note, that it's despite all the brutal forever plus zillion years copyright regime we do get these summer hits that are basically old song with a new spin. And it's fine. And sometimes we get Dune part I, II, and soon III, and hopefully more parts too! Bless the maker and his water!)

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#215
post #214
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Books are fancy, but let's not mix up progress with being able to live off writing them. Ok you can substitute this with any type of R&D done by individual or small to large companies. > We see innovation in open source every day from small startups, from various sized communities, and from hobbyists. Open source is only really successful in areas where it's a cost centre. Generally, companies mainly invest it into…

Books are rarely written as solutions to overcome a specific pragmatic problem. (We need a blue LED, sure I'll write a novel series about it! We need walkaway-safe nuclear power plants, let me get my quill! We need to come up with a delivery mechanism for mRNA vaccines ... hm ... order the ink and warm up the presses!) Sure, books are great at popularizing ideas, serve as a unit of discourse, like papers, journals, c…

> Books are rarely written as solution

Of course. I just used books as an easiest example of why IP was beneficial and created an environment where individuals could make a living independently by creating content. Indirectly this (amongst other things) create an environment where intellectual work actually became valued by the society.

Patents are probably a more straightforward example .e.g. why would've have Savery, Newcomen, Watt etc. have worked on created and improving the steam engine and how would've they attracted the investment necessary for that if they could in no way profit from their work?

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#216
post #215
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Books are rarely written as solutions to overcome a specific pragmatic problem. (We need a blue LED, sure I'll write a novel series about it! We need walkaway-safe nuclear power plants, let me get my quill! We need to come up with a delivery mechanism for mRNA vaccines ... hm ... order the ink and warm up the presses!) Sure, books are great at popularizing ideas, serve as a unit of discourse, like papers, journals, c…

> Books are rarely written as solution Of course. I just used books as an easiest example of why IP was beneficial and created an environment where individuals could make a living independently by creating content. Indirectly this (amongst other things) create an environment where intellectual work actually became valued by the society. Patents are probably a more straightforward example .e.g. why would've have Saver…

Well, why did anyone - before patents - invent anything? :) Fame, recognition, reputation, furthering the king's glory, and of course mad pussy (or whatever the correct terminus technicus is nowadays).

And as I (hopefully) implied before, it's good that we worked out a social contract that incentivizes these things (that we think are the cornerstones of the progress we want/need), but it seems there's quite a lot more work to be done on this, because it was very crude before, and now it's just ridiculously blunt.

And it's a hard problem, I don't want to say that most people today only really get the downsides (higher medicine prices), because the whole drug discovery and push to market pipeline is horribly inefficient, eats money like there's no tomorrow, and it's not just patents. The FDA can grant ~3 years of exclusivity with the marketing authorization, right?

But. We see that patents are already not good enough for medicine. (Or that the busy little lobby beavers built a huge fucking dam around the patent moat. Just to be sure.)

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government investment in biomedical research has a history of following political fashion rather than optimizing for the best outcomes. Diseases that a politician cannot talk about in a press conference don’t get funded. The rise of private foundations funding a large percentage of all biomedical research was a response to government, and sometimes companies, reliably ignoring major medical research areas.

[citation needed] Research funding is allocated mostly by the academic community itself, via panels consisting of academics. This does have problems of its own, but they have little to do with politics as in elected politicians. Policians can have some influence on general directions, but it's quite limited. What you say sounds very much based on the general anti-government and anti-democratic ideology rather than ev…

I am familiar with the history. The problematic gaps in medical research are well-known even within the government communities with budget for biomedical research. Ironically, the US military has ended up funding, despite their more limited budget and no real mandate, basic medical research into common non-military diseases like multiple sclerosis that NIH/NSF ignore but have obvious ROI for reducing population-scale medical costs (which affects the military but is outside the scope of its mission). Similarly, the rise of privately funded foundations to fill persistent odd gaps in government-funded biomedical research are well-documented.

The large increase in non-traditional funding orgs for biomedical research over the last several decades has been driven by a widespread perception that the traditional government funding has been increasingly captured by a academic cliques with low ROI priorities.

I've worked in government science orgs, the capture of funding control by ideological academic cliques is very common. It has unfortunately infested the biomedical research funding, which reduces realized ROI from the money allocated to those orgs. In the US government, some of the best medical R&D ROI dollar-for-dollar right now is found in the military, but that really shouldn't be their job outside of traditional areas like trauma medicine.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's almost like capitalism stifles innovation. It's not. It's nowhere close. "Capitalism" (which is a weasel word to begin with), has produced far more innovation than any other economic system. Even aside from the overwhelming historical evidence soundly disproving your point, your argument is designed to deceive: > It actually pushes innovation towards profits, not pure innovation. Strawman argument - very few p…

I hesitate to reply to people that hide behind throwaway accounts, but sure, I'll bite. >Even aside from the overwhelming historical evidence soundly disproving your point That has basically nothing to compare against it. The very few attempts that we had in modern times were ultimately sabotaged by capitalism. Maybe those attempts would not succeed even without the sabotage but regardless, of course it's better than…

> I hesitate to reply to people that hide behind throwaway accounts

My account is three and a half years old, has more karma than your account, and has an equal amount of personal information (zero). Calling it a "throwaway" is inaccurate, saying that I'm "hiding" is manipulative, and your further statement

> but sure, I'll bite

...is further evidence of emotional manipulation instead of reason and intellect.

> The very few attempts that we had in modern times were ultimately sabotaged by capitalism

Given the many non-free-market states (almost all of which were communist, but the point generalizes), every single one of which has failed, the overwhelmingly most likely cause is simply that they don't work. Any claims otherwise require a massive amount of evidence.

> Capitalism did sprout innovation, but that does not mean it's the best way to do so. Ignoring the inherent flaws around the profit motive doesn't help anyone.

Nobody, including in this thread, is "ignoring" anything. Sane people look at the free market system, realize that it needs some amount of regulation to remain stable, and apply that. Insane people suggest that communism is a plausible alternative to free markets - and nobody has been able to come up with another system other than those two.

> I don't think so, honestly.

You're incorrect, then. The point that you made was "[Capitalism] actually pushes innovation towards profits, not pure innovation" - and nobody claimed that capitalism incentivizes "pure innovation", so that's the very definition of a strawman argument.

> The reality is that a lot of research is done with the question of "how can we make money solving this problem?", rather than "how can we solve this problem?"

Again, nobody claimed otherwise - if you had read the comment you're responding to, you would have also seen:

>> the "side effect" of innovation happening as a result of chasing profits is literally how "capitalism" is designed to work

> Regulators that are corrupted in search of capital. It's a circular system.

This is both incorrect and irrelevant. Incorrect, because regulators are corrupted in search of money and power, not because of capital. Irrelevant, because those factors are present in every other alternate system. Free market systems are not unique in this matter, and so this is an irrelevant point to bring up because no alternative system will change this.

> Many do believe that democratically elect people should have more power than private institutions with zero transparency or checks. Not sure exactly how that "decreases the quality of human life". Where did that come from?

Again - you should read comments before you respond to them:

>> corrupt regulators that anti-capitalists would happily put into greater positions of power and give more power to meaningfully decrease the quality of human life

Putting corrupt regulators into greater positions of power is what "decreases the quality of human life".

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulators that are corrupted in search of capital. Isn't that the same thing that happened in every socialist attempt in the modern era? Isn't the cause the fact of original sin not the particular economic structures? To put it another way, how do you propose to solve the issue of "[sabotage] by capitalism" the line between good and evil that runs, as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "right through every human heart"…

You're right that corruption is not exclusive to capitalism. All systems will have that in one way or another. That was something the person I was replying to brought up. I don't think it matters for capitalism specifically. Any system worth considering should accept that corruption is unavoidable. As for a solution... I don't know. I truly wish I had a ready answer to something as big as this, but I don't. The best…

> You're right that corruption is not exclusive to capitalism. All systems will have that in one way or another.

Right, and if you'd done any research into alternative economic systems at all, you'd realize that free market systems are the only feasible economic system because it best addresses corruption. Socialism, communism, fascism, and other systems are more vulnerable to corruption than free market systems.

> I truly wish I had a ready answer to something as big as this, but I don't

If you don't, then don't suggest that people experiment with other economic systems when the cumulative toll of those experiment to date weighs in at over a hundred million lives.

> The best I can come up with are multiple systems with checks

That is what we have right now. In America, Canada, the EU, and many, many other "capitalist" systems. Why are you proposing it, when we have it right now?

> Today the power that goes unchecked is capital

This is objectively false. Laughably so. "Capital", whatever that means (as anti-capitalists regularly shift their use of it to avoid being caught in logical fallacies), is not an unchecked power in any of the top dozen current world powers - especially not the US, where there are literally dozens[1] of government agencies tasked with monitoring and controlling money and business in the country.

> Lobbying, donations, media time, etc. It's all affected by it

Everything is also affected by the pride of human beings - yet that has no bearing on the equivalent claim that "the power that goes unchecked is ego" - both that statement and yours are equally false.

> systems like democracy were not designed to deal with external influence that is then used to consolidate itself

"Democracy" is meaningless. You have to pick out a specific implementation of it - like the US, whose political system is designed to deal with external influences. The fact that it fails is because of corruption of individuals elected in office by the people - not because "democracy" somehow can't handle existing in a free-market system.

[1] The Congressional Budget Office, Government Accountability Office, various agencies in the Department of Agriculture, basically everything in the Department of Commerce, the Secret Service, large swaths of the Department of Justice (especially the antitrust division) and the Department of Labor, the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs in the Department of State, parts of the Department of Transportation and the Department of Treasury, the Federal Trade Commission, the Federal Communication Commission, the Federal Deposit Insurance Commission, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and many, many more. The claim that "the power that goes unchecked is capital" is objectively. Wrong.

Re: Amazon owes $525M in cloud-storage patent fight, US jury says

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that corruption is not exclusive to capitalism. All systems will have that in one way or another. That was something the person I was replying to brought up. I don't think it matters for capitalism specifically. Any system worth considering should accept that corruption is unavoidable. As for a solution... I don't know. I truly wish I had a ready answer to something as big as this, but I don't. The best…

> You're right that corruption is not exclusive to capitalism. All systems will have that in one way or another. Right, and if you'd done any research into alternative economic systems at all, you'd realize that free market systems are the only feasible economic system because it best addresses corruption . Socialism, communism, fascism, and other systems are more vulnerable to corruption than free market systems. >…

> free market systems are the only feasible economic system

Free market systems are not feasible, and capitalism (a system defined around description of a real, at the time existing, system) is not a “free market” system (an infeasible abstraction invented as a post-hoc rationalization for capitalism.)

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