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SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

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Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#211

Post by patmorgan23 »

bigyikes wrote: post #201

I grew up in the south and was fortunate enough to move to the Bay a few years ago. I was expecting it to be some kind of utopia, with futuristic technology on every corner. In reality, it is roughly the same as anywhere else in America. A bit of a let down. The innovation does not take place in the infrastructure. Beautiful place, though!

When BART was built in the 60s/70s it was innovative. The construction techniques for the Transbay Tube were unique at the time. The system was billed as a transit system built from the ground up for the space age. It was equipped with, at the time, a state of the art Automation Train Control system.

Upgrading those systems is expensive and difficult, so it's not surprising old prices of equipment hung around until the end of their useful life. Especially since BART is going through a massive budget crisis at the moment (and this isn't the only one in its history).

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#213

Post by inferiorhuman »

fdr wrote: post #189
inferiorhuman wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transit vehicles purchased with federal funds are required to meet a minimum service life (see below). For the Muni Metro you're looking at a minimum expected life of 31 years. https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/2021-11/...

That's an average service life from what I can tell, not a minimum (a minimum average?). But yes, it does trend a tad higher than what my cursory search indicated (25-30, feds want 31) Looks like this has been the subject of some industry wandering in the last generation: https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/new-boom-in-the-... Some were planned for 30-35 years, some for 25 to 30, some models have aged so grac…

  FTA has set a default ULB as the expected service years for each vehicle
  class in the table below. … In cases where the submitted ULB differs
  significantly from the default value, agencies may be prompted to submit
  justification.
The first generation of modern streetcars (the Boeing-Vertol) barely made it 24 years and that was scandalous. The next generation (Breda) were so bad that their manufacturer was banned from city contracts. Even so the Boeing cars were retired post haste as Muni took deliveries of the Breda cars. The last of the Boeings were decommissioned in 2001, and the Bredas look like they'll be around the full 31 years at least.

Basically if you're buying things that don't last 30 years, the feds are going to be very reluctant to give you money.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#214

Post by cscurmudgeon »

ceejayoz wrote: post #47
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We spend more than any nation on public services and goods. We also give the most in foreign aid. Govt inefficiency/corruption squanders this money. E.g., https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-hasnt-been-tracking-hom...

> We spend more than any nation on public services and goods. In part, because of the ideology the poster outlined. Penny wise, pound foolish. As an example, our healthcare is 2-3x as expensive as the rest of the OECD. Our public spending is more than anyone else's total spending, and then we pile on top of that. ( https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm ) We saddle the poor with high-deductible plans the…

No, if what the poster said was true, Americans would overwhelmingly vote for lower taxes and lower public spending.

US is 3rd in the world giving index contradicting the OP's fact free statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index US is in the top

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#215

Post by cscurmudgeon »

Solvency wrote: post #40
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We spend more than any nation on public services and goods. We also give the most in foreign aid. Govt inefficiency/corruption squanders this money. E.g., https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-hasnt-been-tracking-hom...

exactly. the exact mentality i described is behind most of the government corruption. "fuck you, i got mine."

Nope.

No, if what you said was true, Americans would overwhelmingly vote for lower taxes and lower public spending.

Americans would all vote against foreign aid (or representatives that use that as a platform and win always).

US is 3rd in the world giving index contradicting your fact free statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index US is in the top

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#216

Post by phire »

ForOldHack wrote: post #206
ilya_m wrote: post #202

Upgrade? More like launch the process of planning for drafting a bid solicitation announcement. If I were 3.5" floppies, I wouldn't worry about retirement any time soon.

No, not 3.5, they said 5, but I think they mean 5 1/4. Think they could use floppy emulators, and get another 20 years out of the controls?

The reporter said "it runs off three five inch floppy disks"

It's unlikely a system deployed in 1998 would be using three separate 5¼" floppies. I'd believe a single 5¼" floppy, but not three of them.

It's much more likely the system boots off uses a single 3.5" floppy, and the reporter forgot to read out the "point"

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#217

Post by jandrese »

asdefghyk wrote: post #173
jandrese wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought. Floppy emulators are a dime a dozen thanks to the retrocomputing community. Emulators for the custom boards full of discrete logic, opaque ROM chips, PLAs, and so on from long dead companies are going to be a much bigger challenge. If they had good schematics for all of the parts it might be possible to keep the the system running for a long time with a couple of smart EEs who are comfortable wit…

RE "....Still an expensive process, ....." Actually probably NOT , if all the $$ saved over the last 25 years , and also considering the many millions to get a completely new replacement system....

The expense will be in "certifying" the machines for use with passenger traffic. Nobody wants personal liability, so we wrap ourselves in knots trying to pass responsibility on to someone, anybody, else.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#218

Post by rayiner »

madaxe_again wrote: post #110
arrosenberg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with go…

Transit employees are not the same people as, nor have the same motivations as the politicians who manage transport agencies. Of course the employees work hard. It’s the vocation they’ve chosen. I’m always amazed by the diligence of TFL and rail employees in the U.K., for instance. No, the guiding principle for the folks at the top is “so, how can I make money for myself out of this before I fail upwards?”. I’d wager…

> Of course the employees work hard. It’s the vocation they’ve chosen. I’m always amazed by the diligence of TFL and rail employees in the U.K., for instance.

We are talking about American transit workers. I haven’t been to London, but I’ve been amazed by the diligence and efficiency of Japanese transit workers. But they bear zero resemblance to the folks running the transit system in DC, where I live.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#219

Post by ceejayoz »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #214
ceejayoz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We spend more than any nation on public services and goods. In part, because of the ideology the poster outlined. Penny wise, pound foolish. As an example, our healthcare is 2-3x as expensive as the rest of the OECD. Our public spending is more than anyone else's total spending, and then we pile on top of that. ( https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm ) We saddle the poor with high-deductible plans the…

No, if what the poster said was true, Americans would overwhelmingly vote for lower taxes and lower public spending. US is 3rd in the world giving index contradicting the OP's fact free statement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index US is in the top

> Americans would overwhelmingly vote for lower taxes and lower public spending.

They do! Or, they think they do. The politicians of both major parties promise lower taxes, smaller deficits, if you just vote them back in next time.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index US is in the top

It counts tithing to megachurches as charity, though.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#220

Post by nostrademons »

iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

That doesn't result in bigger budgets. If the goal of a manager is to increase their budget and hence scope of responsibility, any solution which doesn't result in a bigger budget isn't really a solution. Same reason it's going to cost a hundred million, yet a single indie game dev can write a train scheduling simulator by themselves.
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