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Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

heraldscotland.com

211–220 of 244 posts

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that precisely the argument to extend the definition of consciousness, our own human bias on what is conscious colors what we define as such. If the 'universe' is conscious, every cell in your body is as well... and well... they are alive - and they do make 'decisions' that end up keeping (royal)us alive that look intelligent from an outside perspective... which is about the same perspective a large (zero-g evo…

I understand the argument you're making, but it feels misguided in my opinion. Other things don't need consciousness to be valid -- and more importantly, consciousness is not an inherently positive thing which needs to be extended other things. Ideally, consciousness is specifically defined such that we can draw relatively clear boundaries between what is conscious and what is not. In any case to answer where conscio…

> In any case to answer where consciousness comes from, consciousness arises from the brain. You can test this with anesthesia, which is markedly different from sleep in that it does remove conscious experience.

Similarly, the sound that comes out of a radio comes from the batteries, you can test this by removing the batteries and seeing that the sound stops.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m reading the book “determined” right now. It’s pretty good and sums up all the arguments very nicely. And of course we don’t have free will. We have experience, which fools us into thinking we are in control.

Would need an explanation of why the universe is destined to result in an illusion.

Indirect Realism as a consequence of evolution + lack of distribution of this knowledge (causing it to be phenomenologically experienced as Direct Realism) as a consequence of culture.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know what consciousness is. It's our self-awareness Not really. There are plenty of disorders that destroy a person’s self-awareness but appear to leave a fully conscious person there anyway.

Then take off the “self” part. How about conscious is awareness? The more aware you are, the more conscious you are?

Is 1000 bees more or less aware than 10 buffalo?

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#214
post #92

No, consciousness requires - a purpose - why would the universe need it? - a mechanism - how would learning occur? - a source of learning - that is the environment, what is the environment of the universe? doesn't make sense What I think are good signs for possibility of consciousness: - a self replicating agent, with the ability to perfectly copy and multiply its code - limited resources, leading to competition - ot…

I am conscious. What's the purpose of me having consciousness? As far as can tell I could have functioned the exact same way without experiencing anything whatsoever.

My tongue in cheek answer is that you need consciousness in order to get up in the morning and eat something, or else you die. What are the chances that food comes on its own into your mouth?

The serious answer: consciousness has the role to protect the body by adapting to the environment. At the same time consciousness is based on system trained with environment data, all we know comes from outside.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#215
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any reason whatsoever to believe either of these? Not a reason, but there are many people that have had experiences that align with panpsychism It's not necessarily something that you have to believe, like a made-up story. Instead, it's something that you can experience for yourself (either through yoga, meditation, breathing, psychedelics or other forms of attaining different states of consciousness) Edit…

You're giving a (very weak) reason - personal experience while in altered states of mind. Of course, people doing at least some of these practices also personally experience all sorts of other false things, many which they themselves don't believe when outside the altered state, such as vivid hallucinations.

Altered state and personal experience are still a part of the fabric of reality though... They are just different configurations.

Granted only a few people have been able to transcend materialism since the beginning of history, but it's all the same either way.

Reality is axiomatic. Either we're here and a part if it or reality doesn't exist.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're giving a (very weak) reason - personal experience while in altered states of mind. Of course, people doing at least some of these practices also personally experience all sorts of other false things, many which they themselves don't believe when outside the altered state, such as vivid hallucinations.

Altered state and personal experience are still a part of the fabric of reality though... They are just different configurations. Granted only a few people have been able to transcend materialism since the beginning of history, but it's all the same either way. Reality is axiomatic. Either we're here and a part if it or reality doesn't exist.

Let me put it like this. When taking psychedelics, you may see long dead people, hear voices, etc. These things are real experiences, but that doesn't mean that the long dead person really came to visit you, it's just a construct of your mind under the effects of the psychedelic. That experience is of course an aspect of reality, but it is not proof that dead people can sometimes re-materialize and visit us. Not even the person who had the experience believes that (usually).

So in the same way, if under the effects of psychedelics you get a sense that everything around you is conscious in some way, that's a valid experience, but it does not mean we should take an absurd idea like panpsychism seriously as a theory of reality.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If absolutely everything is conscious, how come we can go unconscious after a knock on the head? How come chemicals like alcohol can change our consciousness? Or adrenalin? How is it that the only consciousnesses we are aware of happen to be located in exactly one human body, rather than say only the upper half of one, or fifteen humans, or any other subdivision of the universe's matter? Why is my consciousness not s…

You don't know that we're unaware when "unconscious" just that we're unresponsive, and we don't have memories of that time. There is evidence that the senses are still active and a lot of brain activity continues. There is evidence that the human brain contains many consciousnesses, just look into research on split brain studies. I'm sure you've had the feeling of being aware of what was going on but feeling powerles…

> There is evidence that the senses are still active and a lot of brain activity continues

Why do you mention that if you're arguing that absolutely everything is conscious? Why would brain activity be relevant?

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#218
post #54

We never bothered to define consciousness with any scientific rigor, so why not? It's common for things that are everywhere, to also be nowhere at all. Could the cosmos, in fact, be smurpity-badoingo?

Could Pet Rocks Be Conscious? I mean, really. I feel like having a method of sensation and an ability to react to those sensations is a fundamental basis for "consciousness" and if you can point to the sun or the Local Cluster's sensory apparatus, I may listen to the rest of your (the Editorial You, not the commenter this reply is attached to) argument. Otherwise, we're just pointing at complex things and saying "doe…

The problem with your definition is that it excluded forms of life that do not have actors and sensors. Implying that consciousness is not a mental property, but rather a property of being physically able to manipulate the world.

I.e. you are saying Stephen Hawking is definitely less conscious than an average human with functioning arms and legs. In its essence, you are too focused on your own experience of reality.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#219

The most fundamental argument for panpsychism is that it obeys Occam's razor FAR better than the "emergent animate matter" hypothesis. Panpsychism requires that the universe updates its state by conscious choice, which we already know happens, so from the perspective of Occam's razor we would actually need to explain why it DIDN'T happen for non-animal matter. Additionally, if we go with the emergence hypothesis, we…

from wikipedia:

>Occam's razor is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements

it's a general principle or _recommendation_, not some law of the universe. Some people might argue that "God wills it" is the simplest explanation for many things, but that doesn't mean it's true. The simplicity of an explanation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its validity.

In addition, the introduction of panpsychism, just like the introduction of God into any argument, brings up a whole other set of questions that need to be answered -- additional complexity, which is the opposite of Occam's Razor.

Emergence out of complex systems is arguably the simpler explanation, because it's something that's already been observed, measured, and studied, like storms emerging from simpler principles of weather systems.

Or take your computer or smartphone -- do you truly understand all the mechanisms from which we go from "shocking rocks" to create series of on/off signals, to things like communicating on the internet, or watching videos? Is computing and mathematics some inherent property of silicon? Nearly part of a computer, on some fundamental level, is a relatively simple mechanism, and has an almost useless function on its own. Even for engineers who understand every level of abstraction, it must still be near-miraculous that any of this works, even though these emergent properties are deliberately crafted, well-documented, and understood.

Here's a video about GPT transformers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjZofJX0v4M

His ability to not only understand, but to also effectively communicate these concepts, I'd say makes him one of the smarter people out there. And yet, he remarks, "I don't know about you, but it really doesn't feel like this should actually work." There are still things people don't understand about why AI works the way it does, despite the fact that we built and trained them -- feel free to hit up Claude or your favorite resource for examples on emergent properties. LLMs can be passably apt at things they weren't trained for, and exhibit behaviors weirdly similar to people (like confabulation), despite the fact that their exposure to the world is literally only text.

I'm already imagining ways people could twist this into proof of panpsychism. But the point I'm getting to is that the human body is an absurdly, stupidly complex system of 37 trillion cells. The Milky Way is estimated to have 400 billion stars, at most. Like LLMs, we understand some things about our brains... but the complex interaction of many parts is less easy to understand. The purpose and value of feeling and awareness as a function of survival isn't a "tall order" -- it's just difficult for the human brain to grasp so many moving parts simultaneously. For some people, the complexity of the eyeball alone is proof that there must be a god -- the sheer magnitude of billions of years of brute force trial-and-error is difficult to comprehend.

Human intuition: a potentially powerful, but simultaneously and often error-prone weak force of the human brain.

>Panpsychism requires that the universe updates its state by conscious choice, which we already know happens

[citation overdue]

I think there are are at least two levels of logical fallacy here, not to mention avenues of undefined and fuzzy circular logic, but I've already spent too much time on this. I'd say try pasting that into Claude or another "big AI" and see what their critique is.

Re: Could the cosmos, in fact, be conscious?

#220
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd sort of say its two fold: 1. the object in question would need to behave in a conscious way 2. I'd have to look in the guts of the object and see evidence of some kind that the processes I was observing were inherent in the design of the thing. To clarify a bit about the second point: I can talk to a phone with a person on the other end of it and it can demonstrate some properties of consciousness. If I didn't kn…

1 is circular. 2 invites our prejudice for how we think conscious could work.

It is spiral shaped, sure, like basically all scientific inquiry.
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