Live data from Hacker News

Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

sheldrake.org

211–220 of 377 posts

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#211
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aware is germanic, perceive is latin, it's the same concept. Maybe meditation doesn't have the results you think it has? As for what drug experiences can tell us, I didn't claim they say anything about "the whole universe". They can however tell us other things. For one, LSD causes parts of the brain that usually work in a synchronised manner, like a system of cooperating parts, to loosen from each other, which is pr…

Psychedelics are very likely the basis of many religions, including Christianity. Having magical religious experiences on LSD is practically a meme, so I am not sure what would lead you to suggest otherwise.

Christianity was founded as a monastic, ascetic, apocalyptic sect in antique judaism, and got the shape recognisable to most of us through roman imperial politics. If you think those jews or romans used psychedelics I'd like to know why.

There might be traces of cannabis in the hebrew Bible but it's not a common theme and pretty much every word this idea is usually based on could be a reference to something else.

There are religions using psychedelics, some of them probably quite old, but none of the big, popular ones do. In part this is explained by european (and similar) traditions surrounding government, which tends to be very suspicious of strong feelings and competition from drug use when it comes to the loyalty of their subjects, so for a religion to become a societal institution it has to get rid of the drugs if there are any.

Edit: As for modern interpretations of e.g. LSD as a religious experience says more about cultural poverty and millenia of ideological subjugation than the experience itself.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#212
post #110

Someone ought to trick analytic philosophers into taking some of the more popular psychoactive substances, so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit. Also, the sun is clearly an anus: "The simplest image of organic life united with rotation is the tide. From the movement of the sea, uniform coitus of the earth w…

Yeah I would think anyone that has got drunk or experienced post-wank clarity should realise that consciousness isn't a separate thing to the brain's physical processes. Still, consciousness definitely exists and is definitely weird. And I don't think it's futile to try and learn about it. It's just not going to be philosophers that give us any answers (as usual).

Thinking science and philosophy are entirely separate misses the big picture. Look at it this way: all the science fields we study today, like physics and biology, grew from philosophical questions. What we’re doing when we dive into these subjects is exploring questions about the world, a task philosophy started.

Take chemistry and astrology as examples. Why do we consider chemistry more valid? It's not because chemistry steps outside of physics' boundaries; it's that it gives us useful answers based on physics. Anything in chemistry that doesn't fit with physics we see as a mistake. But this doesn't mean chemistry doesn't have its place. It tackles parts of the world physics covers in broad strokes, just as physics uses math to detail its findings. Saying physics could exist without math, or implying a problem in physics could be solved outside of math, goes against the whole idea of what physics is.

Saying 'philosophy is dead' ironically shows how successful philosophy has been. We don’t need to constantly refer back to philosophy for everyday scientific questions because those frameworks are already well-established. Philosophy comes into play when we’re faced with truly strange or new questions that challenge our current understanding.

I swear that the administrative convenience of treating domains of science as distinct subjects rather than subsets and supersets and entirely separate from philosophy in K-12 has caused confusion and dogmatic rigidity on a global scale.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#213

If the sun is conscious, that could explain why humanity believes in a powerful god that can, eg, send floods. Perhaps the flood was caused by a coronal mass ejection that boiled a section of the ocean, causing extreme rains in a valley region. Let's imagine that the consciousness field of the sun encompasses all of our minds.. so thinking about it might let us talk to it. So prayer could be real too. They can probab…

This doesn't make sense. In the case of humans and animals, consciousness is a way to adapt to the environment to protect their lives, fulfill their needs and eventually reproduce. Consciousness is useful for life. But in the case of the sun, what is it adapting to, and what does it have to protect? Nothing. The fact that consciousness appears always in populations might be essential. Consciousness was the result of…

What you're describing isn't consciousness, it's intelligence. Consciousness is how the universe decides to evolve one way as opposed to another.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#214
post #110

Someone ought to trick analytic philosophers into taking some of the more popular psychoactive substances, so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit. Also, the sun is clearly an anus: "The simplest image of organic life united with rotation is the tide. From the movement of the sea, uniform coitus of the earth w…

> so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit

How would that explain out-of-body/near-death experiences? They happen to people, it's a fact. Sometimes people gain new information during them that they couldn't have possibly hallucinated by themselves, like being able to repeat a conversation that took place in another room while they were clinically dead. Within the framework of the modern science, the experience itself can be explained by the dying brain hallucinating it; the obtaining of new information from physically inaccessible parts of the reality, however, can not.

Then there's also the phenomenon of people suddenly waking up, or having dreams about it, when someone close gets into an accident while they sleep. This can not be explained by modern science at all. It happens too often, to too many people, to be a simple coincidence.

Then there's the phenomenon of heart transplant recipients receiving the memories of, and sometimes the ability to communicate with, their donors. This can be explained by some memories being stored in the heart cells, or in its nervous tissues.

Now, I'm not really into pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, but because of how unexplained and under-researched the subject of nature of consciousness is, I try to keep an open mind. Those field theories in particular sound appealing. They haven't been proven, but they haven't been disproven either.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#215
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've hit on the root of the debate, but you might have missed it. The debate is to define the meaning of consciousness. We've got a general problem of not knowing what consciousness is, if it actually exists, how many people have it, if it is exclusive to humans and not really having a good philosophical grounding for (assuming multiple separate consciousnesses could exist) whether in practice that is the case of i…

> if it actually exists It seems likely that it exists, because why would we discuss it? (Occam's razor) Also consciousness has an effect on physics for the same reason.

> Also consciousness has an effect on physics for the same reason.

I don't think that is correct. If physicists are alleging that physics works differently when we literally turn our back then that is something they should spend more time publicising.

What I assume you are referring to is that, in practice, to observe something experimentally we have to interact with it (eg, to record the velocity of an object a laser or something has to bounce off it). Ie, it is impossible to do an experiment without interacting with the subject of the experiment.

The physics doesn't change based on consciousness, it is just a comment on the limits of what experiment is capable of.

> It seems likely that it exists, because why would we discuss it?

We discuss lots of things that don't actually exist. Most mathematical objects don't exist as far as we can tell, and even if the universe is infinite it is almost certainly not big enough to contain the bigger infinities the mathematicians can dream up unless there is a lot going on that we aren't getting hints of in our observations.

And we won't ever settle the question of whether randomness exists. It isn't possible to rule out the theory that the universe is all just a simulation and built off a pseudo-random function. Theoretical random processes are still a foundation of modern society.

Something not existing doesn't stop us from theorising how things would work if it did exist. The question really comes down to whether it is a quirk of evolution that results in a convincing illusion or an actual thing.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#217
People tend to have strong opinions about this sort of thing, but the fact of the matter is there’s no way (currently) to know. (But also, it’s effectively metaphysics as it makes no testable/falsifiable predictions.)

We could in principle discover a physical process that causes subjective experience, and a detector for same (say, it’s a particular string vibration in one of the coiled up dimensions).

But it’s also possible that a physics-based explanation is forever out of our reach, and this remains armchair philosophy.

An interesting experiment when we have AGI would be to evolve a new mind from sensory data, but carefully omitting any human dialog about subjective experience, and observe if such an intelligence also makes reference to those things. Not a knock-out experiment either way, but could be fun nonetheless.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#218
post #92

What we get from the sun is low entropy, since all the energy that gets to Earth has to be irradiated away, else we'd cook quickly. If this low entropy carried by energy flows makes life possible, and life is how I get my consciousness. I'd say in a way my consciousness comes from the sun. The warmth of my skin and the qualia of my thoughts are movement perpetrated on Earth by the sun.

> I'd say in a way my consciousness comes from the sun.

Our star is the major, "central" (chuckle) factor in our Goldilocks existence, but Anthropomorphism is an anthropocentric game. [1]

Cyanobacteria [2] , flowering plants and pollinators would also be part of our complex Goldilocks consciousness.

Our awareness of this fragile existence should encourage us to be the best version of ourselves and enjoy every moment.

[1] _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

[2] _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#219

The tragedy (depending on how you look at it) with discussions about consciousness is that any possible consciousness we envision is inevitably human-like. We wouldn’t see it as “consciousness” even if it was only somewhat different from ours (animals); a consciousness that is really different may look to us like any natural process. A question of “is X conscious?” has no meaning if you remove that constraint of “hum…

I think you can envision “non-human-like”. Eg we already imagine animals can be conscious.

Conscious just means an intelligence that is self-aware and has subjective experience. If you define that as human-like then your point stands tautologically. But I think there is a very wide space of conscious possible-minds.

Simple examples would be hive-minds, faster minds, slower minds, distributed minds, quantum minds, it’s really quite easy to imagine conscious non-human minds.

Re: Is the Sun Conscious? (2021) [pdf]

#220
post #110

Someone ought to trick analytic philosophers into taking some of the more popular psychoactive substances, so they finally discover how tightly coupled consciousness is to the matter in the nervous system and stop their embarrassing search for Holy Spirit. Also, the sun is clearly an anus: "The simplest image of organic life united with rotation is the tide. From the movement of the sea, uniform coitus of the earth w…

Yeah I would think anyone that has got drunk or experienced post-wank clarity should realise that consciousness isn't a separate thing to the brain's physical processes. Still, consciousness definitely exists and is definitely weird. And I don't think it's futile to try and learn about it. It's just not going to be philosophers that give us any answers (as usual).

> consciousness isn't a separate thing to the brain's physical processes.

That's ironic, because this is the most popular theory of consciousness among analytic philosophers: physicalism. It says that consciousness is identical to some physical process.

The problem with this theory is the knowledge argument. Mary grew up in a room without colors. Inside the room, she did learn everything about the brain. For example, she knows exactly what physical process is associated with the experience of "red". One day, she goes outside for the first time, and sees a rose. Does she learn something new? Something she didn't already know from knowing everything about the physical correlate of having experiences of red?

Post reply on HN