Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 225 posts

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#211

Post by npsimons »

Sigh. I think Atwood really should have entitled his post "please write better software." Everyone seems to be trying to ad hom Atwood by shouting "elitist!" when all I think he wanted to do was discourage people from learning to program if all they were going to do was release shitty code. Trust me, as a maintenance programmer, I can sympathize. The world doesn't need more programmers; it needs better programmers.

My take on "Please Don't Learn to Code": http://hardcorehackers.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/2012/05/15#please

Edit: Yes, this is my interpretation, and it's one way to look at it. Zed's is another (inflammatory) way of looking at it that reads in (wrongly) a whole lot more. I think Atwood is correct: for some people, learning to code is a waste of time. But no one should be discouraged from learning anything, ever.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#212

Post by slurgfest »

sklipo wrote: post #204
gaelian wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a book written by Douglas Rushkoff called Program or be programmed[1] wherein he asserts quite a compelling argument for why learning at least a basic understanding of programming and how a computer works actually is (or very soon will be) just as important as being able to read. The basic crux of the issue for me is this: you can control a society via the flow of information through that society. Both read…

Of course people will need to be informed on security and privacy on computers, but that doesn't require an understanding of coding. I know how to safely drive a car, for example, but I have no idea how it works under the hood (and frankly, I don't have the time or energy to learn this). Coding really is a specialized job. For sure, some people would be better off learning it because it can be useful, but everyday pe…

Many programs are tiny, written in poorly-regarded languages (Excel, app macros, shell, etc.), and written by people without the title of "software engineer." Many times the number of well-known products like Word or Stack Overflow. But that doesn't mean they are not programs and it doesn't mean they are not serving useful purposes. And the number of areas where little programs could help in the future is huge.

Programming is not a specialized job and it does not require specialized knowledge. Even idiots can program. The fact that you can program shows that you had interest and access to computers but it does not put you in a special club. Programmers ARE everyday people, not a priestly caste who can be distinguished from birth. And in the last few decades their numbers have dramatically increased - with each generation's clueless and accidental beginners becoming the next generation's experts.

We don't tell people "please don't learn any math" or "please don't learn any geography" even though most people will not become specialists or need a specialist's understanding. These are still generally useful things and things which make you an educated and modern person. We don't know where they will be useful or to whom. It benefits many more individuals to know something about these, and it greatly benefits our society that many individuals know something about them.

"just listen to what the experts have to say" is something that started to change as of the Gutenberg Bible, thank God.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#213

Post by drbawb »

sklipo wrote: post #204
gaelian wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a book written by Douglas Rushkoff called Program or be programmed[1] wherein he asserts quite a compelling argument for why learning at least a basic understanding of programming and how a computer works actually is (or very soon will be) just as important as being able to read. The basic crux of the issue for me is this: you can control a society via the flow of information through that society. Both read…

Of course people will need to be informed on security and privacy on computers, but that doesn't require an understanding of coding. I know how to safely drive a car, for example, but I have no idea how it works under the hood (and frankly, I don't have the time or energy to learn this). Coding really is a specialized job. For sure, some people would be better off learning it because it can be useful, but everyday pe…

Very well said. My understanding of computers came far before my understanding of code.

I think people are falsely equating all the marks of a good programmer as being the benefits to learning how to program.

"It makes you logical, methodical, organized", etc etc.

Yes, these are all qualities you'll find in a good coder. However I don't think programming is a good way to teach these thoughts! NOT AT ALL!

I learned all those things by writing English papers. I had lots of problems writing in my early years, so I studied, and worked hard. I learned how to outline my thoughts. I learned how to properly revise a work. I learned how to organize my thoughts into logical units. I learned how to make those logical units flow into one another. I learned how to arrange those units so that they each make sense in context. I learned how to target a unit to a specific audience.

I think programming would've been a terrible way to learn those skills. English is at least somewhat forgiving. Even if your sentences aren't perfect, the general idea still comes across.

Learning to program involves weird and obscure syntax, you're constantly fighting with the compiler, you're dealing with stack-traces a mile deep every time you make a mistake.

Programming is an incredibly challenging way to learn problem solving.

Obviously I found that challenge to be worthy of pursuit. Certainly we shouldn't be discouraging anyone from learning how to code. At the same time though, I think it's incredibly offensive to say that everyone should know|learn how to code.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#214

Post by drbawb »

Tsagadai wrote: post #184
prayag wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree that it is more of life skill than say learning about European history. Or calculus. But so is basic electronics and basic electrical engineering. Where do we draw the line in the modern world?

Wherever you want. It's your life, learn what you want to. You don't have to wait for some internet celebrity to tell you what you should or shouldn't be learning.

Herein lies the rub, though. We have to choose what we want to teach our kids. That's how the current system is established anyways.

The current system does not let you "learn what you want to." It teaches you an established core curriculum.

Personally I think an overhaul of the education system would be far more productive than letting internet celebs duke it out until their agenda gets pushed down the throats of K-12 students.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#215

Post by npsimons »

singular wrote: post #112

There's a funny juxtaposition between Zed Shaw's rather excellent books and what just comes across as nasty, personal, bullying comments and attacks on people. In fact, around a year ago, amidst serious worries in my life, I read some typically Shaw-ian stuff which essentially utterly disuaded me from wanting to try and do things out in the public arena should he, or people like him, feel like attacking me for produc…

Anyone else think that maybe this http://oppugn.us/posts/1272050135.html is why Mark Pilgrim committed infosuicide?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#216

Post by vadman »

ahquresh wrote: post #187
cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

I agree with you completely, I do not know much about Zed Shaw, being a fairly new and somewhat young programmer but the post leads me to believe that programming should be a part of our general education along with math and the sciences. One does not have to make a career out of it, but having basic understanding of programming and just the general technologies that dominate our lives today can go a long way in secu…

If the general population programs as much as it applies math and sciences, Atwood's worries about "more bad code" would be completely moot.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#217

Post by dbecker »

rsanchez1 wrote: post #202
dbecker wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life was hard 200 years ago. Taking the time to learn to read would have been a major hardship for some people, and many (most of whom could not afford books) may not have used the skill much. I think it was reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago.

England had a literacy rate of 62% around 1800, so no, it was not reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago. The American Revolution was spread through pamphlets passed out at the local tavern. Newspapers played a major role in educating the people about the Revolution and passing around the text of the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and Constitution, so no, it was not rea…

A 62% literacy rate doesn't mean it was unreasonable to have a literacy rate less than 100%.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#218

Post by rsanchez1 »

prayag wrote: post #127
nboshart wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it IS a life skill. It's not comparable to reading or writing maybe, but it is comparable to financial planning. People don't learn to write budgets properly so they go broke. People don't know how computers work, even just the basics, but operate these machines every day as part of their work and their home life. Knowing how to use a command line to look for viruses, how to monitor your home network, or even wha…

I would agree that it is more of life skill than say learning about European history. Or calculus. But so is basic electronics and basic electrical engineering. Where do we draw the line in the modern world?

Don't draw a line. You shouldn't limit yourself like that.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#219

Post by rsanchez1 »

crazy_eye wrote: post #150

If Jeff's goal was to create a widespread dialog over a mostly unquestioned trend, he succeeded wildly.

He just brought out all those bitter against everyone wanting to learn to code out of the woodwork. All those who wanted everyone to code in the first place are still here, still wanting everyone to learn to code.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#220

Post by rsanchez1 »

bryze wrote: post #4

I really don't know why people worry so much about this. I don't think dissuading people from entering any field is surprising. Generally, experts in a field want passionate, talented people, because that's how the field will likely advance, which is what any good expert hopes for. If we scare off the dispassionate before they have a chance to burden the field, great. This is exactly the purpose of "weeder" courses i…

Yeah, too bad you don't need a college education to use jQuery.
Post reply on HN