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The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

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Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#211

Post by burnished »

verisimi wrote: post #182
burnished wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I always appreciate that, I hate it when people shy away from honesty because they think some heckler won't understand the subtlety of the observations at play.

You realise of course that models can be wrong. The map is not the terrain. Models are not reality. The observations here are on models. If I knock up something in excel, and other people use that thinking it is how things are, but do not refer to the reality the model represents because there is no way to do that, how useful is the model? Have you ever looked at old medieval beastiaries? Information is being relayed…

You ask good questions but act like you already know the answers which is really unfortunate.

you are mixing up models and simulations. A simulation can be a great way of exploring something unknown if you understand the rules in enough granularity. Models can be judged by their ability to make accurate predictions. Electrical engineering depends on both a great deal, I expect you agree that it is useful as a field given the method of communication we're using.

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#212

Post by samatman »

basil-rash wrote: post #210
samatman wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And further I know evolutionism is the same. You're dead wrong about this.

In fact, I'm not. Science covers the field of things which can be observed and explained via repeatable tests. The concept of micro-evolution is well within the purview of science, as we can and have observed small changes in populations based on environmental conditions, and we have established many repeatable tests of such phenomena. Macro-evolution (what I call evolutionism), on the other hand, has never been scie…

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Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#213

Post by basil-rash »

samatman wrote: post #212
basil-rash wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, I'm not. Science covers the field of things which can be observed and explained via repeatable tests. The concept of micro-evolution is well within the purview of science, as we can and have observed small changes in populations based on environmental conditions, and we have established many repeatable tests of such phenomena. Macro-evolution (what I call evolutionism), on the other hand, has never been scie…

[flagged]

Any argument would make for a much better argument than your deranged repetitions.

I've claimed X doesn't exist, all you have to do is demonstrate it does for you to "win". It should be very easy, given how confident you seem.

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#214

Post by basil-rash »

pixl97 wrote: post #199
basil-rash wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> looking at things like RNA/DNA mutation rates in known species it's pretty damned easy to see that things have been around a whole lot longer than 6k years Again, please understand the underlying assumptions you are making when you concoct statements like this. Namely: DNA/RNA started as a single form and has mutated at a constant rate since then. You have no evidence to support that, and I disagree with every comp…

Then lay down a dissertation that at least provides some evidence you're correct. Also, any guesses on why the 'modern' age is suddenly going in slow motion. Not exactly sure how you're going to pull that off without breaking chemistry completely.

There is no evidence one way or another, nor is any evidence possible. That is, indeed, the entire point.

And I'm not sure why you think the almighty creator of the universe would have trouble making chemistry... "work".

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#215

Post by dekhn »

basil-rash wrote: post #209
dekhn wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought even creationists rejected the Ussher chronology.

Some might. There are many branches and leaves in both the evolutionist and creationist worldview trees. That axiom is simply a fairly significant trunk-branch. That said, it is very rare that I hear someone describing themselves as Christian who denies the general 7 day creation story. I happen to personally believe it was seven consecutive days^, but I've heard arguments it could have been seven days with an unknow…

I think I'll stick to the Silmarillion, it's a much more compelling origin story than Genesis (either version).

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#216

Post by samatman »

basil-rash wrote: post #213
samatman wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Any argument would make for a much better argument than your deranged repetitions. I've claimed X doesn't exist, all you have to do is demonstrate it does for you to "win". It should be very easy, given how confident you seem.

[flagged]

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#217

Post by tomcam »

jonnycat wrote: post #198

This kind of unicellular complexity & intelligence has long been my soapbox material in the AGI debate. Even long before the current LLM craze, people were counting neurons in the brain and making bold claims about machine intelligence - in just X years, we'll have a machine with the computational power of the brain! But of course, every neuron in the brain is bafflingly complex and we still don't know or understand…

In fact we know precious little about the mechanisms inside any given cell. We can describe the outcomes of many processes but we couldn’t replicate them if our lives depended on it.

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#218

Post by basil-rash »

dekhn wrote: post #215
basil-rash wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some might. There are many branches and leaves in both the evolutionist and creationist worldview trees. That axiom is simply a fairly significant trunk-branch. That said, it is very rare that I hear someone describing themselves as Christian who denies the general 7 day creation story. I happen to personally believe it was seven consecutive days^, but I've heard arguments it could have been seven days with an unknow…

I think I'll stick to the Silmarillion, it's a much more compelling origin story than Genesis (either version).

Feel free.

But how much of the world's resources have been dominated by folks placing their faith in Eru Ilúvatar?

And I'm sure you're aware Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and described his works as fundamentally Catholic?

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#219

Post by basil-rash »

samatman wrote: post #216
basil-rash wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any argument would make for a much better argument than your deranged repetitions. I've claimed X doesn't exist, all you have to do is demonstrate it does for you to "win". It should be very easy, given how confident you seem.

[flagged]

What a bizarre loop to find oneself caught in. So sure the other person is lying, but thoroughly unable to come up with any evidence to show for it. And unwilling or unable to consider the implications of that lack of evidence.

And people say religious folks are the brainwashed ones!

Re: The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis

#220

Post by jcynix »

mrkstu wrote: post #106
talkingtab wrote: post #45

The way I think about this comes from reading John Holland's "Hidden Order". If you read that book not as a book but as a way to build a Complex Adaptive System, then it comes down to a few essentials. An environment, a bunch of entities, a read/write messaging bus so the entities can interact. The entities need a set of rules and sensors. Put it together and what have you got? Thinking. Or intelligence. Try building…

As can be seen by the specializations between human brain hemispheres. There is a bus between them, but when that communication is cut, and you can see that a lot of what we perceive as a single thought process, is a bunch of independent computing entities with an OS layer on top creating the unity that doesn't really exist.

>a lot of what we perceive as a single thought process, is a bunch of independent computing entities with an OS layer on top creating the unity that doesn't really exist.

As described in Marvin Minsky's fascinating book "Society of Mind" ...

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