Stop postponing things by embracing the mess • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#211

Post by adadadadadad » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 5:21 AM UTC

_yb2s wrote: post #195

adadadadadad wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are actually making the case that ADHD doesn't exist or is pretty meaningless. There is no scientific basis for it, it was a bunch of criteria that were arbitrarily chosen to create a term called "ADHD" so that they can prescribe meds. You just have to ask the question as to why we can't give meds to everyone when 25% of college students report using them. Why can't we give meds to someone addicted to social medi…

Most medical conditions are diagnosed entirely on symptoms, and then those symptoms are treated. Especially in psychiatry, where we understand so little about the brain- all conditions in the DSM are symptom based, not mechanistic. We cannot have a scientific understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind a disease, when our biological understanding is way too primitive to allow that. Medicine has been helping peo…

> We shouldn't stop making peoples lives better in the short term.

> I think "scientism" in medicine has been very harmful

That's what they said when they were drilling holes in people's skulls and doing lobotomies.

Now we are giving children meth and yelling down anyone who wants to discuss long-term side-effects.

The obvious reality is ADHD is a means to sell meds and psych appointments. You cannot escape homeostasis and you just end up with people dependent on a drug for the entire life where the effectiveness has completely waned and they are worse than when they started.

It's unbelievable that ADHD diagnoses are increasing at the same time almost everyone is completely addicted to social media. If you start prescribing stimulants for ADHD when all they needed was to get off social media...you are going to fuck up an entire generation.

The neurodevelopment dopamine theory is the reason why ADHD people get these smart drugs and no one else does. It makes them safe from addiction. But its entirely unproven.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#212

Post by adadadadadad » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 5:25 AM UTC

SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #185

adadadadadad wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't really heard about ADHD framed as a working memory impairment. Because it does seem like an easy workaround via religiously following pomodoro - every 25 mins a reminder that you should look at your task list. It's hard to argue that someone can manage to ignore an alarm ringing every 25 minutes. I thought of it more as you actually do know what you should be doing, but there is something a lot more interes…

Are you a conservative or a republican? you sound like one. I am not being passive-agressive, just making a point that political beliefs have strong influence on attitude towards mental disorders.

[flagged]

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#213

Post by adadadadadad » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 5:41 AM UTC

littlelady wrote: post #192

adadadadadad wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot overstate how odious I find opinion. Yet... > RSD isn’t an officially recognized medical condition. It’s also a condition for which there’s limited scientific research available. > https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24099-rejecti... --- > This idea of punitively shaming people... It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline. If I tell a non-ADHD person to try their best…

RSD is a term used to explain a behavior. It doesn't have to be a medical diagnosis for it to be something people experience. > It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline. People with ADHD are aware that there are consequences for missing deadlines, so aware they've coined the phrase "ADHD Tax"[1]. Shaming doesn't motivate people, especially people who have issues with motivation in the fir…

> assistance with breaking down tasks and setting priorities paired with frequent deadlines

Pretty much what I am arguing for.

Deadlines have to matter.

> someone with ADHD might spend a week working on some random detail that doesn't matter, because they think it's important.

No one is like "oh, thanks, it was just a matter of working on this thing, my bad, I lost track of time". It's a totally arduous process to abandon this task you are enjoying and drag yourself kicking and screaming to work on what you should be working on...which will be pain inducing. You need a way to get through this pain.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#214

Post by littlelady » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 10:06 AM UTC

adadadadadad wrote: post #213

littlelady wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RSD is a term used to explain a behavior. It doesn't have to be a medical diagnosis for it to be something people experience. > It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline. People with ADHD are aware that there are consequences for missing deadlines, so aware they've coined the phrase "ADHD Tax"[1]. Shaming doesn't motivate people, especially people who have issues with motivation in the fir…

> assistance with breaking down tasks and setting priorities paired with frequent deadlines Pretty much what I am arguing for. Deadlines have to matter. > someone with ADHD might spend a week working on some random detail that doesn't matter, because they think it's important. No one is like "oh, thanks, it was just a matter of working on this thing, my bad, I lost track of time". It's a totally arduous process to ab…

Your response demonstrates you didn't engage with my response. ADHD is not a character flaw, it is a disability.

1. More deadlines for smaller chunks does not imply that the deadlines are stricter; it's about preventing overwhelm and helping with time-blindness.

2. Focusing on the wrong thing is not (always) about "enjoyment", so much as it's about being overwhelmed, bored, under/overstimulated, or being unsure of what one "should" be working on.

3. Your wording, particularly "kicking and screaming" reveals your disdain for people with ADHD. You are not "very open suggestions" on accommodations as you claim to be.

Here's a list of books about ADHD: https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/adhd-book-recommendat...

Here's an article, if you can't be bothered to read a book about it: https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/adhd-wish-you-knew

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#215

Post by StefanBatory » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 2:08 PM UTC

high_priest wrote: post #207

StefanBatory wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did mess up with my ego heavily. Because once in a while I would actually manage to push through anxiety and do something, and I'd succeed. Unfortunately it made me quite narcistic, as I ended up with belief that I could always succeed, if only I gave in some effort - but as I never tried to do that in practice, I ended up at the top of Dunning-Kruger curve. High ego, no skills.

Holy crap this feels so real. Excelling at school & career at an early age, while being absolutely trashed at home/family time, gave me the anxt from sticking my head out of the room. But, at the same time, while out and about, already working on something, subconcious power trip in most interactions. Like, when I am already on a roll, I have this vivid vision of the tasks to take & tools to use. I am quick to decide…

Yep, this... :/

Wish I could say something, but I don't really, so I'll just send you a virtual hug.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#216

Post by bookofjoe » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 3:54 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #159

adadadadadad wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Today is the day” and sometimes it just is. It’s nice to tell yourself a story as to why this is the ideal moment to have a reset.

The thing that worked for me was getting so bored of being depressed that one day my mind went “Okay fine, you’re right, nothing matters. If nothing matters, then me feeling this way doesn’t matter either. I’ll just go do the things regardless of how I feel” Been 20 years now. Works fine. The depression has been starved of attention, only comes back when I’m hungry.

Yes. Being depressed is SO boring. So is being in a psychiatric hospital because of deep depression (I've done that twice, in 1977 after a near-miss suicide attempt (pills) and in 1991 when I became anxiously non-functional and frightened).

Though I've never been in jail or prison, I suspect boredom is a dominant condition there too.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#217

Post by theADHDfounder » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 4:14 PM UTC

adadadadadad wrote: post #211

_yb2s wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most medical conditions are diagnosed entirely on symptoms, and then those symptoms are treated. Especially in psychiatry, where we understand so little about the brain- all conditions in the DSM are symptom based, not mechanistic. We cannot have a scientific understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind a disease, when our biological understanding is way too primitive to allow that. Medicine has been helping peo…

> We shouldn't stop making peoples lives better in the short term. > I think "scientism" in medicine has been very harmful That's what they said when they were drilling holes in people's skulls and doing lobotomies. Now we are giving children meth and yelling down anyone who wants to discuss long-term side-effects. The obvious reality is ADHD is a means to sell meds and psych appointments. You cannot escape homeostas…

I agree that we should study the more extended time effects of this medication. I started in 8th grade and stopped 2 years after college because I was worried about building a dependency. When I stopped taking my meds, my symptoms were way worse, so I almost had to take meds. Since I've stopped, I've been able to manage my symptoms well.

Meds are a great starting place to give you momentum, but we should slowly transition away from them as we develop better habits.

That's why I launched ScatterMind.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#218

Post by _yb2s » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 4:24 PM UTC

adadadadadad wrote: post #211

_yb2s wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most medical conditions are diagnosed entirely on symptoms, and then those symptoms are treated. Especially in psychiatry, where we understand so little about the brain- all conditions in the DSM are symptom based, not mechanistic. We cannot have a scientific understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind a disease, when our biological understanding is way too primitive to allow that. Medicine has been helping peo…

> We shouldn't stop making peoples lives better in the short term. > I think "scientism" in medicine has been very harmful That's what they said when they were drilling holes in people's skulls and doing lobotomies. Now we are giving children meth and yelling down anyone who wants to discuss long-term side-effects. The obvious reality is ADHD is a means to sell meds and psych appointments. You cannot escape homeostas…

I get why you have this perspective because I shared it a few months ago, before my kid was diagnosed, and then I did a deep dive into the research, and more or less did a 180.

You are dead wrong, and have some serious misconceptions, which can't really be explained in a short reply here, but I will outline the main things I think you are missing, if you are open to looking into it.

-There are a lot of non-stimulant treatments and medications that work for ADHD. The reason stimulants are the most widely used is because they have high effectiveness, and low side effect risk. There is tons of research, discussion, and concern on long term side effects and there are risks, but they are less than the extra risks of untreated ADHD.

-Tolerance does not negate the effectiveness of stimulants, it does keep working long term for most people.

-Addiction and dependence on stimulants has mostly to do with the rate at which the effects come up. Doses and protocols used for ADHD don't cause addiction in ADHD people or the general population, because the levels don't come up enough to cause any euphoria.

-Social media and smartphone/internet addiction, etc. do harm executive function in everyone, and make ADHD worse but the effect is tiny compared to the baseline impairment in a person with ADHD.

-The "neurodevelopment dopamine theory" you're talking about is not a mainstream concept among neurologists and neuroscientists anymore. Current research and ideas on executive function and ADHD have moved a long long way from that. If you're seeing a psychiatrist that thinks like this, find someone that has read some literature in their field in the last few decades.

-Your response to my comment about scientism shows you don't know what I mean by scientism. I'm not critical of using science to advance medicine, but in doing the same old thing and pretending it's science, with nonsense explanations. The "neurodevelopment dopamine theory" is scientism.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#219

Post by renaudg » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 4:25 PM UTC

adadadadadad wrote: post #171

projektfu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think that 6 months or more of 5/9 symptoms of inattentiveness or 5/9 symptoms of hyperactivity, persistently, does not represent most of the world. (And excluding: "The symptoms are not solely a manifestation of oppositional behavior, defiance, hostility, or failure to understand tasks or instructions." 6/9 symptoms are required to diagnose children) [0] Indeed, surveys show that it's probably under 10…

If you look into how the criteria is chosen its very arbitrary. And this descriptive diagnosis where you pick from list A and B is extremely bizarre from a common sense standpoint. And there is no brain imaging or genetic markers available. > The number of criteria required for a diagnosis of ADHD has been set arbitrarily in DSM-5. No scientific justification has been presented nor method used for deciding how many c…

> The number of criteria required for a diagnosis of ADHD has been set arbitrarily in DSM-5. No scientific justification has been presented nor method used for deciding how many criteria should be required.

Erm.. welcome to psychiatry ?

There is nothing bizarre (or unique to ADHD) about picking from a list of precise, agreed-upon criteria to form a mental health diagnosis. It's how the entire field works, and it's actually a huge step forward from the times when each therapist made up their own definitions.

In the absence of definite imaging or genetic markers for most illnesses, building consensus on criteria and thresholds in a reference manual (the DSM) is the next best possible way to end up with objective, useful and standardized definitions.

Not having a blood test for an illness doesn't mean it isn't real.

> It's important to be aware that each percentage point is hundreds of millions of dollars.

You don't need to resort to conspiracy theories once you understand the above.

Re: Stop postponing things by embracing the mess

#220

Post by _yb2s » Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 4:31 PM UTC

adadadadadad wrote: post #210

_yb2s wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical hyperactivity is often a pretty minor symptom of ADHD, bigger issues for many kids are things like inability to regulate emotions, e.g. causing violent outbursts over small things, or inability to focus, e.g. not able to do school work. The physical hyperactivity, like other ADHD symptoms, is a lack of executive control- the person cannot choose to stop moving even though they want to, or feel they shoul…

It's very interesting. I wish I could observe it. Don't you wonder though how evolution allowed this trait to come so far though, especially with it being so prevalent. Potentially it meant that for centuries there have been children with poor school grades who simply went off into lower-income careers that they were suited to.

Most of the people in previous generations in my family killed themselves with alcohol at a young age. In my generation, we are all diagnosed with ADHD, managing it effectively (without stimulants), and making 6 figure incomes as scientists and engineers. None of us have any hint of alcoholism.

My pet theory is that alcoholism doesn't actually run in our family, but that people were previously self-medicating for the emotional pain of being a round peg in a square hole with alcohol. When your whole life you are told that you are lazy and useless, despite internally wanting to work hard, provide for your family, and accomplish something- that causes a massive amount of pain and trauma.

People like you who insist a disability isn't real because you can't physically see it from the outside, are the reason why it took so long for people who are different to be accepted, and be able to find ways to cope. I still have to hide the fact that I have ADHD to be taken seriously professionally. Your attitude sucks, and is harming other people by dismissing who they are, and what can help them. You're morally and practically the equivalent of someone advocating for removing wheelchair ramps, and telling paralyzed people to just walk, and that people are just trying to sell them wheelchairs- it's just a scam. From the bottom of my heart- fuck you.