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Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

canada.ca

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Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#211

Post by Cthulhu_ »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #168
frankus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can a FZ assist in enrolling a new key in the ECU immobilizer’s list of approved keys, or does it just facilitate a relatively quiet way of unlocking the doors? Because honestly there are lots of ways of gaining access to the inside of a vehicle, and if it can’t enroll a new key it’s neither necessary nor sufficient for stealing a vehicle.

This is why keyless fobs are such a bad idea. Transponder keys that have to be in the lock are much more secure as a form of 2FA.

A lot of the weak security now being exposed by the Flipper Zero (but they already existed and were actively being exploited) are the result of trading in security for convenience.

An example: Contactless payments, I can pay up to €50 by just pressing my bank card against the receiver. Very convenient, but, anyone can hold a receiver up to where I have my card and steal money that way. There's insurances of course, in this case the bank is pretty clear in saying "we know this is a risk and you will be compensated", same as with their apps etc. But it is a tradeoff.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#212

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bhaney wrote: post #59

Never cared much about the Flipper Zero personally, but now that governments are banning them I guess it's time to buy one. Great unintentional marketing campaign, Canada!

That's how I feel; I'm confident that if I had one it would end up in a drawer alongside raspberry pi's and ESP32s and the like, but hearing it may be banned is a compelling argument to get one.

That said, this is the most popular one, I'm sure there's clones out there already that fly under the radar.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#213

Post by postpawl »

randomdata wrote: post #208
postpawl wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, those with significant wealth and power end up shaping policy. This can lead to public disengagement, as many feel the system is not truly representing their interests.

> those with significant wealth [...] end up shaping policy. Yes, of course. Those with wealth hire people, often referred to as lobbyists, to put in the hard work. Technically, representative democracy requires everyone to be, or have, their own lobbyist, but in practice that's a lot of work that most people don't want to put in. They prefer to defer to a figurehead. It's easier that way. And, as such, give up power…

The challenge isn't that people don't want to engage; it's that the demands of daily life, such as working long hours to make ends meet, leave little room for the kind of sustained political involvement that wealthier individuals can afford. When we say that people delegate their power to figureheads, it might be more a reflection of an unequal system that doesn't effectively support widespread civic participation, rather than a choice made out of apathy.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#214

Post by randomdata »

mhitza wrote: post #210
randomdata wrote: post #182

In theory, a representative democracy keeps checks and balances by the people still routinely communicating with each other as if it were a direct democracy and if the representatives are not acting in accordance with the direct findings, then it's off with their heads. But in practice that's a lot of work. The reality is that most people don't want to be involved and are happy to have some figurehead do the work for…

> But in practice that's a lot of work. In practice there are no built-in mechanics to deal with representatives. Wait X years for reelection is not the option. Liquid Democracy would be a possible solution, in which you have the right to vote on all policy directly, or delegate and revoke your voting rights at any moment to a representative. That would be the only way to deal with representatives that promise one th…

> In practice there are no built-in mechanics to deal with representatives.

There is if the population agrees that the representative is not acting in accordance to wishes of the population: Off with their head – literally. What are they going to do about it with no head?

In practice, representatives by and large do act in accordance with the wishes of the constituency to the best of their ability. The larger problem they face is a constituency that doesn't want to be involved. I expect at least 95% of the population have never even spoken to their representative even just once. But the representatives are only human. They do not possess mind reading abilities, so they can only go on what the tiny fraction of the population who are active submit.

But, of course, the tiny fraction of the population who are active are probably not representative of the entire population as a whole, and so you get large disconnects even when the representatives are acting in good faith.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#216

Post by inferiorhuman »

galangalalgol wrote: post #163
Ancapistani wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? A lot of vehicles - my wife’s 2015 Kia included - have a very flawed implementation of rolling key encryption. Basically, you need to capture three consecutive keys. The receiver is programmed to allow any future key (in case the fob was pressed away from the car), and will happily reset to past keys when you send three consecutive keys in sequence. Ostensibly this is…

That is pretty terrible! Is there a good resource on how different schemes work? It would be nice to know when shopping.

There was an interesting presentation at USENIX a while back:

https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit...

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#217

Post by zx8080 »

voisin wrote: post #38
zx8080 wrote: post #26

Why not banning radio signals? They are used for cars theft!

Urbanist 5-D Chess: The only logical conclusion is to just ban cars!

For Eco friendly Canada! Let everybody use only public transportation and bicycles in Canada!

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#218

Post by flir »

tamimio wrote: post #179
15457345234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would be okay is to ban the use of an F0 to steal a car. Ban carrying them. If it's truly an educational tool you don't need to carry it around with you. Same as (in the UK) carrying a set of lockpicks is grounds to be arrested for 'going equipped' unless you're a locksmith.

> Ban carrying them. If it's truly an educational tool you don't need to carry it around with you. The whole purpose of this device is to carry it and the portability aspect, else I will use my other powerful SDR.. I have many fobs that I would like to keep em all in one device than carrying the hardware for each, plus backing it up. UK, a country that still requires licenses for a TV isn’t a good example in your cas…

Nice pivot to a strawman at the end there. UK could be demanding licenses for carrying cucumbers, it wouldn't affect his analogy.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#219

Post by flir »

melevittfl wrote: post #165
mistercheph wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if as an American I hold up the English people and their government as a model of how a free and democratic nation ought not to be.

Yeah, but we can freely buy and eat chocolate Kinder eggs.

"Don't put small inedible things inside edible things" doesn't sound like a bad rule to me, to be honest.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#220

Post by randomdata »

postpawl wrote: post #213
randomdata wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those with significant wealth [...] end up shaping policy. Yes, of course. Those with wealth hire people, often referred to as lobbyists, to put in the hard work. Technically, representative democracy requires everyone to be, or have, their own lobbyist, but in practice that's a lot of work that most people don't want to put in. They prefer to defer to a figurehead. It's easier that way. And, as such, give up power…

The challenge isn't that people don't want to engage; it's that the demands of daily life, such as working long hours to make ends meet, leave little room for the kind of sustained political involvement that wealthier individuals can afford. When we say that people delegate their power to figureheads, it might be more a reflection of an unequal system that doesn't effectively support widespread civic participation, r…

Of course the system is not something that magically descended to the heavens, it is simply what people have agreed to go by. If it is unequal, it is so because the people have decided that they want it to be unequal.

No doubt because, as you point out, the typical person would rather spend their time making ends meet (i.e. pay for the luxuries of life) than the worry about making agreements with their neighbours day-in, day-out. You can technically survive on very little time commitment to "make ends meet". Just look at the homeless population. It is not a life you would want to live, but it could be done if you truly saw the need to assert your power. But, understandably, most people would rather focus on their personal goals and let the figurehead worry about the community problems.

What's the alternative? It's just people at the end of the day. There is no magic. Those who do the work are going to do the work the best way they know how. Even if they value your input and want nothing more than to work with you so that you can show your better way, they are not going to scour the globe to find you. If you don't put the effort in to make yourself known on a regular basis you will be forgotten about.

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