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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#211

Post by gopi »

carlob wrote: post #139

I wouldn't compare European salaries with US so quickly. I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their Ameri…

I see this argument (Europe is superior) made again and again. Let me try to clear the misconceptions. Please note i am a immigrant in US and somewhat qualified to compare it with the other countries.

1, Public education is free in US. Of-course the quality varies depending on which school district you live. But in most metros (other than NYC/Bay area/north east) you will be able to buy a 4 bedroom house in a good school district for around $250k.

2, Healthcare - Health Insurance is paid by the company in almost 99% of the cases. Depending on the insurance plan sometime you will have some out of pocket costs (lke $20 copay per doctor visit etc).

3, Vacation - Most companies offer around 2 weeks of paid vacation a year (in addition to sick leaves). Yes its less than in europe but you can always take non paid vacation.

So the bottomline is US offers 2x the salary with 1/2 the cost of living and 3/4 the social benefits as Europe. If you do the math its better to work in IT in US compared to any part of the world.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#212

Post by megablast »

marklindhout wrote: post #183
elliottcarlson wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - I would completely understand someone insisting on a work/life balance - I want it, and I have no problem with people wanting that; but seeing it worded that way is a red flag to me.

His wording is quite accurate if you ask me. At least, I can completely agree with it. Life is about living, not about working, after all.

Well you can do plenty of living when lots of businesses do not hire you due to the fact that they realise sometimes stuff needs to get done. We all want to avoid the constantly crisis mode businesses, but you do this by being reasonable.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#213

Post by horsehead »

throwaway1979 wrote: post #99
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive, but are fizzbuzz tests really that necessary? I have a hard time believing anybody could get an interview, let alone graduate with a BS in compsci, without being able to do something THAT simple ....

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#214

Post by dclowd9901 »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #133
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

You're kidding yourself if you think you can't pack productivity into 40 hours worth of work a week. Some people have this notion that their job is so important that the work they're doing can't be put off til tomorrow. Certainly, in some seats, emergencies arise, but by and large, you should never have to work more than 40 a week at your 9-5.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#215

Post by ArtB »

snowwrestler wrote: post #119

> There are currently 22% more open job positions in this area compared to last year If there is an overall shortage of qualified developers, paying more to hire great developers does not fix it. All it does is raise the salaries of the existing qualified developers. That is fine and great for them, but it doesn't solve the shortage.

Well over the longer period it will bring more people into the career. Economic issues work on the scale of years. But I assure you that if you start paying more now you'll see more people entering in 6 years (ie. you'll catch the attention of people in the middle of highschool and then when they pop out of uni they are yours for the hiring).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#216

Post by stellar678 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #119

> There are currently 22% more open job positions in this area compared to last year If there is an overall shortage of qualified developers, paying more to hire great developers does not fix it. All it does is raise the salaries of the existing qualified developers. That is fine and great for them, but it doesn't solve the shortage.

It fixes the shortage if you're the company having a hard time filling a position and you offer more money than anybody else. That's the basic premise of a market.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#217

Post by KeyBoardG »

We've built our team around the idea that, you pay people enough so that money isn't an issue and then move on. The main focus is on creating a positive work environment and doing our best to keep moving forward with new and interesting work. As a result we have a great team who are generally positive go-getters even in rough times.

We've had a couple people here who were soley motivated by money which stuck out like a sore thumb and ultimately didnt last.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#218

Post by shazow »

Apreche wrote: post #197
dr_ wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors don't have infinite sick days, many don't have 30 vacation days (I barely take a week off a year), and most don't have 40 hr work weeks.

I didn't say treat me the way a hospital treats a doctor. I said you treat me as if I'm a doctor and you are a pharmaceutical sales rep.

Or, treat me like I'm an investor (which I am) and you're a startup (which you are).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#219

Post by Apreche »

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Oh, I want to add one more thing, since everyone seems to like my comment.

You can pay me too much money.

If you give me say, a million dollars a year, I will work for one year, and then you will never see me again. I will go home and live my life as I please, and only code what I want to code. The code may or may not make money. I may or may not try.

If I work at a startup that cashes out big, then I will travel the world, settle in the tropics, and you will not see me again. If someone acquired us as a way of acquiring talent, they will be sorely disappointed.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#220

Post by sophacles »

clavalle wrote: post #185
elliottcarlson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you said; but stating that you will under no circumstances work more than 40 hours a week bothers me. I try to get out of the office every day on time - but shit happens, and there are instances where someone needs to fix something or else the company is losing revenue. You want financial stability with a high salary - but aren't willing to help make the company stable. Yes, a healthy work/…

Crisis mode is addictive. It was fun to play the hero and get 'That One Critical Feature' out of the door for an important demo. It is a rush. Investors like it. Engineers like it. Soon a company is always in crisis mode; pushing hard to get the next great thing out. It becomes the culture. At one company I worked at the VP of Engineering was the hardest, longest working person I'd ever met and a driver of that cultu…

I've seen this too. One company I worked for had a product that was deployed too soon. We as a dev team decided it was time to roll it out when it wasn't. Our fault. This created a crisis mode. It was a rush - live editing code on production servers to save an engineer rollout (nature of the product was one mistake locked us out of the box), seeing small fixes improve conversion by noticable amounts (or reduce the call queue significantly), etc. Bad engineering practice, but it made me understand the cowboy appeal, and I don't think I want to do it again.

However, this resulted in a bit of crisis addiction, followed by burnout. However, the CEO learned that crisis mode was a death march motivator. Suddenly it turned into crisis-this and crisis-that. Every small feature was a "drop everything we'll lose customers" crisis. It started wearing pretty quick. At some point he dropped the crisis act and just stated flatly that "your terms of employment state that you will work as needed, i need you now" the day before I had scheduled time off, and the "crisis" was getting a new feature complete for shipping in a year. Needless to say I got a new job.

Basically, I agree with clavalle - crisis mode if not used exceedingly sparingly can lead to a new set of expectations that will chew up a dev team.

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