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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#211

Post by refurb »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #83
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Better put, the relationship you have with your employer is a business relation ship. It's not personal. They are not your friends, nor your enemies. It's simply a convenient arrangement between the two of you for as long as that lasts. And it might become convenient for either side to change that arrangement at any point. The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to sp…

> The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to spend less / smarter.

And it applies to everyone up to the CEO.

At my company a new CEO came in to much fanfare. A year later they were unceremoniously turfed out because the board decided they weren’t up to the “new direction” the company needed to go.

And not to mention the people under the CEO who road her coattails. They were all turfed in quick succession (or smartly saw the writing on the wall and bailed first).

It’s a business relationship. That’s all. Treat it as such. Get as much money as you can. Don’t kill yourself in the hope your sacrifice will be repaid, it probably won’t.

Basically take the emotion out of it. When management talks of “our big family” they are just saying that because people like to hear it. It’s not true.

And once you’ve gotten enough years under your belt you start to see through the talk pretty easily. Trust your gut. If the company starts to look wobbly, be the first out the door, not the last. Or at least plan according and don’t assume your job will be there next year or even next month.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#212

Post by trashtester »

madeofpalk wrote: post #174
trashtester wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#213

Post by chii »

azangru wrote: post #117
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

> You can be somewhere for 10 years Our organization has a policy that it hires developers on 3-year contracts, and renews them no more than two times. So when you have reached 9 years in the org; when you have become intimately familiar with the domain, and the codebase, and the way the org works etc., you are out. I am still incredulous that someone has thought that yes, this is exactly how an organization should m…

> intimately familiar with the domain, and the codebase, and the way the org works etc., you are out

the idea, i suppose, is to prevent anyone from becoming so integral and important that they will have negotiating leverage over the business.

Cogs needs to be replacible. It's also the core reason why thorough documentation, procedures and runbooks are encouraged.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#214

Post by ponector »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #83
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Better put, the relationship you have with your employer is a business relation ship. It's not personal. They are not your friends, nor your enemies. It's simply a convenient arrangement between the two of you for as long as that lasts. And it might become convenient for either side to change that arrangement at any point. The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to sp…

It is a business relationship, but they always trying to convince employees that it is not. That it is a family, a friendship relationship.

You should be reliable, you should help everyone in your "family". If you leave your "family" abruptly it is a kind of betrayal.

Also funny is brainwashing employees to think that HR is their fried, that HR can help with issues at work.

It is a business. Do minimum amount of work you've been hired for, get your paycheck and focus on your private life!

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#215

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #82
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I find it shocking that this is news to anybody, or that this has ever (in the last n generations) not been the case. Your advice is sound: exchange your expertise for money, invest the money, leave.

Quite a few BigCos had a genuine job-for-life culture until the 70s recessions hit. A few managed to keep it going until the 80s.

The big cultural change happened in the early 80s as MBA culture became the norm, with a shift towards zero sum neoliberal extremism and the uncoupling of pay from productivity.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#216

Post by wewxjfq »

trashtester wrote: post #158
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

I never heard of an IT union in Germany.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#217

Post by huppeldepup »

RayVR wrote: post #119

It seems Google cut several hundred roles…out of how many? Don’t they employ more than 25k engineers? I don’t want to make light of anyone losing their job, but this just doesn’t seem meaningful at this scale

The meaning is found in the combination of the name and verb in the title, afaik the first occurrence.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#218

Post by ponector »

whiplash451 wrote: post #159
Galanwe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should add more nuance I think. While this is a respectable way to see employer / employee relationships, it does not apply to every company / employee out there. In particular, I think this is very true for BigCo, where most people are seen as fungible cogs. The smaller the company, the better.

> The smaller the company, the better. I disagree. There is a lot of variance in small companies. There is a lot of variance in large companies as well (the famous "it will really depend on which team you belong to"). I really think there is little correlation between company size and your experience at such company. The predictive variables (if they ever exist) are elsewhere.

In smaller company you are closer to person with the decision power. It is much easier to build closer relationship and have high visibility to avoid being laid off.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#219

Post by rightbyte »

trashtester wrote: post #212
madeofpalk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.

You could just as well say that US tech sector is prosperous due to using native ascii keyboards.

There is no way to get a clear picture if unions limit innovation or whatever.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#220

Post by oblio »

alecco wrote: post #188
mindwok wrote: post #98

I'm surprised to see so many comments here taking layoffs personally, or talking about how layoffs are stupid. Layoffs are not personal, and the corollary to that is that you should never treat your company as a friend. It's a company trying to maximize value. Also, layoffs do work. Almost every large, successful company has done them at some stage. They are an expected, and necessary, part of operating a company and…

Mass layoffs work when there was over-hiring (management's fault) or there was a big revenue downturn (market forces). This time it was because of over-hiring at the COVID mania. People left safer jobs to join FAANGs tempted with higher salaries and a prospect of improving their CV. And now they are dumped back into the toughest tech jobs market in 20 years. This is totally a fault of management and none of them are…

I really don't agree with this line of thinking.

> Mass layoffs work when there was over-hiring

Ok, let's define "over-hiring".

Google...

had 99k employees in 2018, 119k in 2019, 135k in 2020, 156k in 2021, 190k in 2022, 174k in 2023.

and made $136b in 2018, $161b in 2019, $182b in 2020, $257b in 2021, $282b in 2022, $297b in 2023.

They basically doubled their headcount to double their revenue. How is that over-hiring??? Each person added as much revenue as the ones before them.

Over-hiring would have been if post-Covid business would have dropped, which, guess what, did NOT happen for FAANG. It was, in the worst case scenario, stable (even then, slightly growing).

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