Live data from Hacker News

Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

wingu.se

211–220 of 327 posts

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#211
post #138

They're not tracking locations because they're not using GPS. They are checking the environment for stuff that might have known locations, which is different. You can do the same with bluetooth/BLE.

Same difference as far as a user is concerned. And BT/BLE explicitly asks for permission.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#212
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly correct, though you don't want to admit it's the case it seems. I mean, we just allowed Car Manufactures to pump as much contact data and location data as they can off your phones and sell it to whomever they'd like risk free and legally. We have laws against physical trespassing, but when it comes to 'data' trespassing on applications that you install or come with your phone we're still in the wild w…

> and sell it to whomever they'd like Is there any evidence that car manufacturers are harvesting data from drivers' phones and selling it without consent?

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-car-companies-can-colle...

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#213
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rathe…

I have to agree with this sentiment, I read it here on HN 'power' users more than once. Although most Apple users have no clue about what we discuss here, the part about actively wanting it is simply not true en masse.

Needless to say that's not for me and I will probably keep sporting Androids (in my case I am happy with Samsung's top ultra offerings) since I actually use those added features, ie saving 500 bucks on proper expensive variometer for paragliding and instead hooking it up via OTG cable with basic one with good sensor but without display, for 10% of the price... needless to say relevant app isn't on play store neither. And so on.

But we certainly have choice on the market. I just wish Apple would properly focus on user security and shielding them from the worst of internet, and less on milking advertising, what I see so far didn't convince me it isn't just sophisticated marketing and not much more. You already pay premium on the device, its a proper spit in the face to be so visibly milked more and more, thats pure corporate greed.

What I mean - my wife with iphone pops up browser, I pop up mine with firefox and ublock origin. Internet is utterly useless and horrible place on her phone, while completely fine on mine (plus I get youtube ads blocking as a bonus)

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#214
post #12

It’s worth noting that use of NEHotspotHelper requires a special entitlement (com.apple.developer.networking.HotspotHelper) that you have to apply for, and presumably Apple won’t grant unless your app has a legitimate need for it. That said, this maybe shows an incompatibility between Apple’s privacy strategy and “super-apps” like WeChat and AliPay. When a company shoves all functionality into one app, that app sudde…

> presumably Apple won’t grant unless your app has a legitimate need for it. Increasingly clear that Apple is in charge of what happens on your devices not the users themselves.

It might surprise you but a lot of people want that and buy apple specifically because of that. I would even go so far as to say it is a major competitive advantage.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#215
case study in the power of word choice, this “headline” reads “Apple allows SOME iOS apps to track"... but the actual article to which this page links does not include the word "some", making (imo) Yingyu's article seem to indicate a much more nefarious situation.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#216
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rathe…

> Apple users actively don't want that capability

That's a self-fulfilling property, with cause and effect going as much in the other direction: people who want that capability don't become Apple users. If you want openness, you don't pick Apple.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#217
post #59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

The market decides by not buying devices that empower apps to spy on them.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#218
Wait until people learn about Google sidewalk if they think this is bad.

It is fundamentally intrinsic to the technology of most digital technology that: 1) their very data-driven nature leads to information gathering, and 2) the colossal and inherently inexhaustible recurring revenues in that data collection will always pull organizations and their leadership towards data collection at scale.

The only conceivable framework for preventing information collection is to attach data privacy to the individual as an human right. Even “opting out” as an intrinsic default won’t be enough, though it is regulators’ and industries’ favorite kick-the-can strategy.

Otherwise it’s just a question of time, as the incentive for profit is overwhelmingly attractive to companies, regulators and markets.

Apple, for all the talk of privacy, cannot maintain the fiction of privacy while simulaneously answering to shareholders with a scale advertising business or really any advertising business of any revenue importance at all. Their promise of privacy for users died spiritually if not practically the moment they decided to dramatically expand their ad business, as it shifted the company from serving users as their customer with devices to making those same users the product to be sold.

So this kind of thing is inherent and will continue to emerge from Apple. The opt-in, limited nature of who is allowed access matters very little. Just follow the incentives to understand corporate behavior.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#219
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visibility of multiple networks can be used to refine the position. GPS takes time to acquire and isn't always available indoors. SSID method is quicker, and it's most likely the method your phone uses to get the position first.

As you say, it’s a method to get a coarse location and then refined using GPS which by the way does not really take time to acquire once you have downloaded the almanac and have the coarse location. So this ‘allows applications to track location’ actually allows applications to track coarse location which then does not allow them to refine using GPS.

10-meter accuracy is not coarse location. Even for a single router the Wi-Fi range gives street-level address.

I’d say city level position (a good case of reverse IP mapping) is a coarse location.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#220
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rathe…

It’s not that I trust Apple, it’s that I trust Apple infinitely more than I trust the largest spy network on earth and existing without a smartphone today is difficult.

If you need a smartphone, you can choose between a company that has some missteps, or a demonstrably evil spy network. I know who I am choosing.

Post reply on HN