Normal Operating Sounds • Hacker News Board

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#211

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #143

If I was the engineering team, I would be trying to eliminate all these noises. Every single one of these could be engineered away. For example the pops and bangs at a supercharger is the metal shield deforming when heated. Instead, it should have circular ridges stamped into it around the fixing points to let it expand against the springiness of the steel. The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by usin…

Newer cars don't make as much noise. My 2019 Model 3 was a popping banging noisemaker at the supercharger. My 2023 Model 3 barely makes any sounds at all. So they've clearly done some work to lower the sounds.

> The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by using stainless steel spring clips to prevent the pads being able to wiggle around in the calipers (used by many manufacturers already).

I've owned a lot of performance cars, and I don't know of any that didn't make noise. You're thinking of floating calipers, which are quieter and what most appliance cars use. Tesla is using fixed calipers, which most manufacturers only put on their performance trims. Making a bit of noise is just the nature of that design.

And the brakes aren't Tesla designs anyway, they're Brembo just like almost every other OE fixed caliper setup. I think Brembo knows how to make brakes.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#212

Post by mkoubaa » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

janoc wrote: post #181

londons_explore wrote: post #143

If I was the engineering team, I would be trying to eliminate all these noises. Every single one of these could be engineered away. For example the pops and bangs at a supercharger is the metal shield deforming when heated. Instead, it should have circular ridges stamped into it around the fixing points to let it expand against the springiness of the steel. The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by usin…

It is a matter of priorities. If that was a high priced Bentley where the customer doesn't expect anything but the best for their money, sure, go ahead. But for a Model 3 where you need to carefully manage costs or you will either price yourself out of the market (and Tesla is already at the high end of it!) or go bankrupt I think you will have much bigger fish to fry than dealing with such noises. You also obviously…

I don't agree. Less noise means less vibration and harshness which means more mechanical reliability. It is economical to pursue at all price points.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#213

Post by JoBrad » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #23

Waterluvian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought about this growing up. How the engine’s heat is used directly to heat the cabin and there is no heater. Also my gaming PC in the winter. It feels like free compute given I’m heating anyways.

Unfortunately I have a vivid memory of the opposite: driving an extremely decrepit old car through the south in July, had to crank the heat to max to try to direct the heat away from the engine. No AC in the car, naturally.

I also have this memory. The A/C is a heat pump that just pulled heat to/from the radiator, which is used for both the engine and the A/C. So turning on the heat causes the thermostat to be tripped faster (or so I was told), moving heat away from the engine. You had to be moving for this to work well, especially if your thermostat was going bad.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#214

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

annoyingnoob wrote: post #202

jowea wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think customers want the audio feedback that everything is working fine?

The brake pedal does not have to make noise for me to know the brakes are working. The pads do not have to clunk. There does not need to be a thunk to the contacts opening on the battery when I park for me to know the car is parked. There is a difference between convenience acknowledgements and mechanical parts being clunky, they are all put together here. Kind of shows where Tesla put its focus, and that there is wo…

> People used to higher end cars tend to notice and maybe not like the extra clunky bits, everything should just work smoothly and quietly

That's kind of funny. Higher end cars are where you most commonly find fixed caliper brakes, and we are 100% used to the little noises they make. What's unusual here is Tesla choosing fixed calipers for an appliance car. So now we have people used to driving Priuses being exposed to mechanical sounds they're not familiar with.

That and electric cars are so quiet that you're going to hear things that are drowned out by an engine on other cars.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#215

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

93po wrote: post #206

newaccount74 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kinda good natured fun that I really liked Tesla for before they announced an armored vehicle that's designed in a way to increase the likelihood of accidentally running over your kids playing in the driveway.

Tesla cars, including the Cybertruck, are much less likely to run over things, including kids, than most every other vehicle. There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter of the car that give you a visual and audio queue for when you're close to stuff, and there's cameras that also cover 360 degrees that show pedestrians and other obstacles on the navigation screen. The people at Tesla have a lot of fun eve…

> There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter of the car

Those have been gone a while. Just cameras now, and a lot of the functionality we had on earlier Teslas still lags behind on the newer camera-only cars.

If you want ultrasonic sensors and full 360 degree camera, you have to get something more advanced, like a Nissan Rogue. No joke ;-). Tesla does not offer this ability.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#216

Post by two_handfuls » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

astrea wrote: post #156

benhurmarcel wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are ways to eliminate most noises. But at some point it’s not worth the cost.

Right. As they’re clearly cutting costs at their current price point /s

Yes? Tesla historically cuts costs as much as possible, putting all the focus on an excellent electric engine and batteries. Everything else takes a second seat.

For example they removed the ultrasonic parking sensors. They removed the radar. In the next revision, they removed the stalks in favor of buttons on the steering wheel to control the blinkers.

The car is still expensive, but that’s down to in part batteries and the tech still being somewhat pricey, and in part just profit (contrast to e.g. Ford selling their cars at a loss).

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#217

Post by seadan83 » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

goldpizza44 wrote: post #159

londons_explore wrote: post #143

If I was the engineering team, I would be trying to eliminate all these noises. Every single one of these could be engineered away. For example the pops and bangs at a supercharger is the metal shield deforming when heated. Instead, it should have circular ridges stamped into it around the fixing points to let it expand against the springiness of the steel. The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by usin…

The sounds are not that intrusive...While others have pointed out the costs involved in solving them, the real question is "will muting each and every sound sell more cars?". Of course from an engineering point of view the other question is "are these sounds indicative of something that will fail prematurely?". The complexity of adding some sort of muting may introduce other modes of failure. Sometimes the best solut…

Adding to peer comments, being perceived as a low or high quality brand does have a strong material impact to a business. It's the difference between, "Oh, you have a Tesla!" to, "Oh. You have a Tesla.."

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#218

Post by two_handfuls » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

armada651 wrote: post #146

hennell wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an interesting bit in car guys vs bean counters where the author recalls the new regulations mandating a smaller average size car. US manufacturers had to make much smaller cars to lower their average. But US customers just weren't interested. They wanted big cars, not just new cars. Japanese manufacturers (who were already lower then the regulated average) stepped in and built new big cars. Not totally simil…

It's an arms race though, most people prefer bigger cars because it makes them feel safer from all of the other big cars on the road. Also it was actually the gas efficiency regulation that started the arms race, because big trucks were exempt from the regulations so car manufacturers started pushing more people towards buying trucks instead of sedans.

Right. So a good step to improve safety would be to apply the same rules to trucks and cars.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#219

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:21 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #107

synaesthesisx wrote: post #30

It's astounding just how quiet EV's are; they can make you hyperaware of other noises (hence why this page exists).

Yeah scary, I need to look around in carparks where I used to rely on the noise of the car approaching.

This isn't a problem in my neighborhood, the opposite has now happened. I can hear my neighbors more than a block away. And it's actually not the EVs that are the worst offenders -- it's Toyota hybrids. They -howl- and are much louder than the non-hybrid equivalent. My Model 3 just makes white noise. Same volume as any other unmodified car at low speeds. Tire noise quickly dominates in either case, of course, above 10-15 mph or so.

Re: Normal Operating Sounds

#220

Post by seadan83 » Sat, Nov 25, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

93po wrote: post #206

newaccount74 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kinda good natured fun that I really liked Tesla for before they announced an armored vehicle that's designed in a way to increase the likelihood of accidentally running over your kids playing in the driveway.

Tesla cars, including the Cybertruck, are much less likely to run over things, including kids, than most every other vehicle. There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter of the car that give you a visual and audio queue for when you're close to stuff, and there's cameras that also cover 360 degrees that show pedestrians and other obstacles on the navigation screen. The people at Tesla have a lot of fun eve…

> "Tesla cars, including the Cybertruck, are much less likely to run over things, including kids, than most every other vehicle"

Citation/data needed. For a vehicle that does not have millions of miles in test or production usage, with all respect, this is a marketing statement. (Millions of miles is even low, a few hundred or thousand vehicles hit those numbers in no time)

One could say the truck is designed in that way.. but again, citation needed.

> There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter of the car that give you a visual and audio queue for when you're close to stuff, and there's cameras that also cover 360 degrees that show pedestrians and other obstacles on the navigation screen.

Are the majority of pedestrian collisions while backing up at low speed? Does this capability have anything to do with pedestrian safety vs not backing up into a mailbox? Will these cameras move the needle in any way for pedestrian fatalities after being struck by a vehicle?