Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#211

Post by pavlov » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:22 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #127

pavlov wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

> Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

I didn't displace anyone because the headcount in my department was global, not tied to location.

I know it's hard to accept for people with old-fashioned nationalist ideas about immigration, but a lot of well-paid jobs these days can be done anywhere in the world.

These are not jobs in America, but rather they are jobs at American companies. And with these immigration policies you're doing your best to make sure the job doesn't get done in America.

For myself, I left the US but still work for an American company. They pay me a California-level salary but I pay my taxes to Finland. From your point of view that must be somehow better than if I was doing the same job but paying taxes to USA? You're losing out on the tax revenue, but at least you don't have people like me as neighbors, so all is good, I guess.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#212

Post by maeil » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:26 AM UTC

tomohelix wrote: post #187

sangnoir wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. The laws governing immigration are very specific about the distinctions between visa classes and the requirements for each class- and the devil is in the details. > The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired. Perhaps, but that is your and Apple's (tacit) opinions. The government of the U…

This horse and pony show is a farce, most of us agree. But the fact is, if you don't dangle this GC reward, much fewer people would come to the US for work and study. The "irreplaceable" term is vague enough that if you strictly enforce it, it would effectively shut down this class of visa. Ask yourself this: how many people in your department would be 100% sure to keep their position if their job is offered up to th…

> You turn them away and China or the EU would gladly take them.

Firstly, there's a good reason the people in question want to go the US instead of China or the EU. EU salaries are much lower and the local language is always a barrier. The same holds for China, salaries can be higher but not US level and then there's all the other obvious drawbacks of living there.

Secondly, China also wouldn't gladly take them, it's the direct opposite

> if you don't dangle this GC reward

In China a GC-like reward is unfathomable.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#213

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:39 AM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #151

microtherion wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firi…

Its naive to think expanding the labor pool wouldnt reduce labor costs. Its supply and demand/economics 101. And obviously they (and every other company) is going to complain they cant fill positions locally in order to gain access to this cheaper pool.

If you're posting something is econ 101 you're probably wrong, and you're especially wrong if you claim adding people increases supply but not demand. People ARE demand.

Labor economists don't use "econ 101", and importantly they prefer empirical evidence over theory.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#214

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:41 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #157

ipaddr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified" You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring. In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.

What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? "Power" also seeks competence. There's no one aspect that is sought is enough to to drown out all the others when hiring, at least not without an outside force requiring it. Do employers want employees that are easy to deal with? Obviously. Is that more important then skill and ability? It depends…

> What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals?

Part of being a Marxist (parent comment) or an anti-immigrationist (grandparent comment) is that you're required to believe any statement anyone makes that has the right words in it. Even though you have no evidence for them.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#215

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:44 AM UTC

hashtag-til wrote: post #105

microtherion wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been…

[flagged]

> starting from sanctioned countries.

Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran?

Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#216

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:52 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #127

pavlov wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

This is what economists call a "partial equilibrium" analysis. This is a polite(?) academic way of saying it's wrong.

Hiring workers does not displace other workers because they come with increased demand for labor of their own. It does increase specialization on the team because you need to find comparative advantage, but that's nearly as much of an issue.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#217

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 9:56 AM UTC

injb wrote: post #192

cool_dude85 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so easy to offshore these jobs, why hasn't Apple done it yet and quit fooling around with this whole onerous visa process? Out of the good of their heart?

It's a good question. There's just something about being in the same country. It's hard to explain why though. I work for a fully remote company. Most of us are based in the US but the company also hires people from some other countries through some kind of agency. Even though many, probably a majority of the US-based people are immigrants (myself included), and many don't speak English any better than the agency peo…

> It's a good question. There's just something about being in the same country. It's hard to explain why though.

Simply speaking, it's better to expand vertically because it's a lot easier to work with people in the same time zone. That's one reason tech is on the west coast.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#218

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 10:01 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #82

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27

I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.

Apple seems to have an unusually long-term orientation with respect to employees and to value tenure and retention in a way that the rest of Silicon Valley does not.

I believe it's somewhat overrated how often people switch companies; a growing company will have a lot of shorter-career employees simply because it just hired them all. Apple has been around a few more decades is all.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#219

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 10:03 AM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #50

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27

I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.

> Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. Apple is a publicly traded company whose shareholders would not tolerate overpaying for labor. Further: Apple was caught colluding with other major tech industry employers with regards to hiring/salary. So please do go on about how Apple doesn't care about labor costs. And also, look at the wages and benefits for Apple Store employees which are…

> There isn't a single corporate employer on the planet who doesn't do everything they can to minimize labor costs.

If a company did "everything" they could to minimize labor costs they'd just fire everyone. But they don't, because this is a bad way to run a growth company. Focus on improving what you can get from them instead of managing them out.

Similarly, people say companies care about profit over everything, but they obviously don't because, say, scented candle companies sell scented candles and not fentanyl.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#220

Post by astrange » Sat, Nov 11, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #88

supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

That's a factor, but I think the H1-B lock-in is more important. Assuming no mistreatment at all is occurring, an employee who you can be fairly confident won't quit still has extra value to you. The H1-B requiring that the employee either goes back to their original country or lines up another company to take over the visa means that they're much more likely to stick around.

They can also get married to a citizen if they find one.