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An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

android-developers.googleblog.com

211–220 of 247 posts

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#211
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we can take that yoavweiss_ character as a Google representative.

This person does not hide the fact that they work for Google (at least that's why take from their about page), so yes, they represent Google. Because if there's anything that was beaten into me in my time at Microsoft, it's that you can put all the "views are my own" in your posts you want, but probably most people that read your post will take you to represent $COMPANY's views no matter the disclaimers.

Which is why when I worked at Google the advice was basically STFU. You'll end up saying something you will regret in some fashion. Either make yourself look like an idiot, or the company, or both.

But I quit so now I get to trash them all I want.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#212
post #104
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not intended to benefit the user.

The benefit to the user is they can supposedly "trust" the content that is being shown in the webview is, in fact, owned by or affiliated somehow with the app. They don't give an example, but i'd imagine its something like: "bad app lets user's sign into their bank account through the app's webview, then webview scrapes/intercepts content to do as they wish".

The "trust" in "trusted computing" is very much the reverse. In this threat model, the user is considered an adversary. The device and its software is built such that the corporate server could "trust" that the device isn't acting in user's interests, instead enforcing the corporation's business model.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#213
post #157
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that something that should be solved at the App Store and/or application fraud detection levels? I get bad actors exist. But they're not an excuse to strip everyone else of rights. >> The Android WebView API lets app developers display web pages which embed media, with increased control over the UI and advanced configuration options to allow a seamless integration in the app. This brings a lot of flexibility, b…

And if it drains people’s bank accounts because they aren’t savvy enough to know that their bank’s app is realbank not realbankofficial? Deal with it? The stance that other people should have their savings stolen, when we could have easily stopped it, because of nebulous freedom reasons is pretty ghoulish.

This is not how bank accounts work at all. "Regulation E". Bank accounts are not bearer bonds, and the system is not meant to be impervious to unauthorized transactions. Your vulnerability/responsibility essentially ends at checking your statements for unauthorized transactions.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#214
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TPM chips are pretty open. I had a look through the spec & API for tpm 2.0 a few years ago and there’s a lot of neat tricks you can do with them. TPM chips are an open standard with many implementations. As far as I can tell, as a software developer you have full access to the chip. The only thing you can’t do with them (by design) is read the signing keys or generate secure boot attestations for machines which didn’…

That's pretty interesting. I wonder if replacing the signing keys could help negate DRM-y uses of the TPM

Doubtful. TPM chips come pre loaded with signing keys from the manufacturer. That allows 3rd parties to verify that an attestation made by your TPM is genuine. (They can do that by checking signatures all the way back to the manufacturer’s public cert).

If you replace the manufacturer’s signing keys with some keys you generated yourself, the only real effect is that your computer can no longer do remote attestations. So you can no longer convince any 3rd parties that your computer is operating in a “secure” mode.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's a "status game"?

Not a native speaker. My definition of status game is jockeying for social position. On the internet, it is trying to get the maximum “points” for your posts (views, likes, retweets,…) instead of sharing for the content itself.

I think that sounds close to "popularity contest".

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the solution is to have two classes of machines, some "safe" for those who don't want to (or can't) be proactive and alert to security threats, and some "unsafe" for those who want total control over their machines and are willing to take on the security risks and responsibilities to do that.

I mean, yes. 1000% yes. But the reality is that the 'market' will push to only make content for the "safe" machines, and the total control folks will slowly get locked out. Banks have required auditors that will mandate only allowing access from 'safe' environments Media companies will do everything to make sure content is only played in 'safe' environments Government will allow allow you to interact with their techn…

It's economics.

If "safe" means ceding control, and there's a business model by which I can make more money if the user cedes control (e.g. enforcing DRM), then I can subsidize the "safe" version and sell it for less than the total control version. I'll make it up on the backend.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#217
post #138

I don't understand how this works. > The new Android WebView Media Integrity API will give embedded media providers access to a tailored integrity response that contains a device and app integrity verdict so that they can ensure their streams are running in a safe and trusted environment, regardless of which app store the embedding app was installed from. But this only applies to the Android WebView API, not standalo…

Step 1: Cryptographically fingerprint an attested environment, for one method among alternatives Step 2: Ban the alternatives Step 3: Profit

I appreciate your succinct explanation regarding WEI—it highlights the core issue effectively.

I’d like to expand upon your point, not to contradict, but to further explore the implications. I’m encouraged by recent announcements suggesting a shift away from policies that could hinder browser user agents.

I believe Google’s actions represent a compromise with media IP owners, who were instrumental in the initial advocacy for these changes. By limiting technological controls to Android, Google appears to appease media stakeholders while avoiding restrictions on the open web, despite their dominant browser market share.

This issue is particularly pertinent to me since my business depends on the freedom of alternative browser user agents to access the web unimpeded. While some might argue my stance stems from self-interest, it does not diminish the value of an unrestricted web.

My product, BrowserBox, is designed to circumvent web content embedding restrictions on both mobile and desktop, eliminating the need for a Webview tag. Hence, Google’s approach doesn’t concern me personally.

In fact, I view it as a positive—if it deflects media companies’ pressure from the open web.

Furthermore, if Android’s technology faces constraints, people might look for other options, and BrowserBox stands as a prime, open-source choice. It’s a low-maintenance solution compared to others, like proxy-based DOM mirroring, which often result in site breakages and require constant, costly tweaks.

As video streaming bandwidth becomes more affordable, the operational cost advantages of these alternative solutions diminish. High-volume operations can leverage colocation services with unlimited bandwidth, further reducing concerns over data transmission costs.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#218
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original title is misleading.

The original title is misleading enough to be incoherent.

Read in the voice of a Sith master: they have learned their lesson well, my young Android apprentice.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#219
post #157
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that something that should be solved at the App Store and/or application fraud detection levels? I get bad actors exist. But they're not an excuse to strip everyone else of rights. >> The Android WebView API lets app developers display web pages which embed media, with increased control over the UI and advanced configuration options to allow a seamless integration in the app. This brings a lot of flexibility, b…

And if it drains people’s bank accounts because they aren’t savvy enough to know that their bank’s app is realbank not realbankofficial? Deal with it? The stance that other people should have their savings stolen, when we could have easily stopped it, because of nebulous freedom reasons is pretty ghoulish.

Resorting to what appears as a moral high ground by labeling any dissenter with extreme negative attributes is, in essence, a shaming tactic intended to stifle opposition. This method is prevalent in political discourse, where extremists might brand those who disagree with them with the most severe moral condemnations available.

The reliance on such shaming suggests that the accuser’s arguments might not withstand critical examination. Instead of yielding to this intimidation, intended to silence dissent, people should recognize these tactics as signs of argumentative weakness and a questionable moral stance. True morality, in contrast, supports the free exchange of ideas in a secure environment where all perspectives can be considered.

Hostile tactics like these often betray an immoral position by those who employ them, despite their attempts to claim moral high ground. Their quickness to suppress dialogue through shaming undermines any claim to ethical superiority.

Recognizing these tactics should prompt us to steer the conversation towards more constructive, open engagement, rather than engaging with any of the points raised in the moral intimidation directly, and question the robustness of the positions of those who resort to such methods.

Re: An experimental Android WebView Media Integrity API early next year

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unlikely that there is a backdoor on the TPM itself. The more likely scenario is that given a TPM serial number or EKpub the vendor could furnish a seed in response to a subpoena or warrant -- however, even this is unlikely, as it would make TPM vendors huge targets for hacking. Also TPM vendors make a big deal of how they don't keep TPMs' seeds, and I tend to believe them, because again if they did keep them th…

"Crypto AG's products being compromised is extremely unlikely, because that would make them a huge target."

Good point!
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