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Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

oag.ca.gov

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Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#211

Post by rahimnathwani »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #78
rahimnathwani wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill. Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQV…

Perhaps "highlight" was the wrong word choice, but it is specifically called out on that menu example. I didn't read the full bill but I'm assuming since the required charge is fully visible, this restaurant would be fine (of course, as long as that required charge was also shown in any advertising that included prices). FWIW, I think those kinds of "5% employee surcharge" fees are total bullshit and should be includ…

  I didn't read the full bill but I'm assuming since the required charge is fully visible, this restaurant would be fine
That's not my understanding. Charging a random fee that's not disclosed to the customer before they order is already illegal. The new law goes further: any random fees should be rolled into the advertised prices.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#212

Post by braelen7 »

PeterStuer wrote: post #82
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

Comments that are bringing up taxes (which are totally exempted by this bill anyway) and tips (with one small caveat) are completely missing the point. You can have a debate about how to display those items on a price list, but everyone knows about them and they are expected. The whole point of this bill is to prevent bait-and-switch, where loads of unknown or variable fees are tacked on after the price is initially…

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax ra…

It is because you are listening to bullshit online too much.

I have lived in the US my whole life and I can't remember that last time I left a tip for anything besides a place that you sit down to eat and someone brings you food.

My first job was delivering pizza and that is something with a long social norm of tipping. A tip was a nice bonus but if someone didn't tip it didn't matter because someone else people would tip an irrationally large amount. I didn't think bad of those that didn't tip, I just assumed they were that broke.

It is not that "every one knows" it is that no one cares about this in the real world the way they do when grandstanding on social media.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#213

Post by hotpotamus »

shortcake27 wrote: post #105
xmprt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.

Almost every other country in the world has solved this problem. It’s always fascinating when Americans have problems other countries don’t have, and just throw their hands in air saying “welp nothing we can do about it”

At some point American Exceptionalism turned into learned helplessness and it's incredibly frustrating.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#214

Post by pandaman »

frumper wrote: post #205
pandaman wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If it's so easy to "know" the local tax rate for various things, why isn't it easy to label them? Because you pay the tax from the total of your purchase and not from each item separately. E.g. in Santa Monica, CA sales tax is 10.25%, a price on a $4.95 item with tax included would be $5.46 but on 10x of these items it's just $54.58.

Retailers can charge whatever they’d like. Retailers are paying the tax, they’re just allowed to add it to the bill, but they don’t have to. They can calculate it per item, round up a penny and that’s the price.

Indeed they can, that's not the question I've answered though.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#215

Post by [deleted] »

guappa wrote: post #198
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't give your address, but the price depends on your address, how does the store know how much to charge you? I don’t want to give my address to see the price. After I’ve decided to buy the thing, I’m okay disclosing who I am. But simply to see the price? Also, if I’m a retailer and people are giving me their address before I price them, on what planet am I not going to use that to help me price discrimina…

You don't need the address, you just need to know in which city they live, AT MOST. Taxes don't change every street.

[deleted]

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#216

Post by [deleted] »

devilbunny wrote: post #207
guappa wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need the address, you just need to know in which city they live, AT MOST. Taxes don't change every street.

They might. Cities can, in most states, cross county borders. Both counties and cities can have their own taxes. I've seen cases where a neighborhood was split. Two near-identical houses, but one had less than half the property tax of the one next to it.

[deleted]

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#217

Post by bcrosby95 »

devilbunny wrote: post #207
guappa wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need the address, you just need to know in which city they live, AT MOST. Taxes don't change every street.

They might. Cities can, in most states, cross county borders. Both counties and cities can have their own taxes. I've seen cases where a neighborhood was split. Two near-identical houses, but one had less than half the property tax of the one next to it.

Believing mailing address cities actually corresponds to a unit of government is one thing I learned is incorrect when I moved to the LA area.

I live near a place called Westlake Village that straddles the LA County/Ventura County line. In LA County, Westlake Village is a city. In Ventura County, Westlake Village is a neighborhood within Thousand Oaks, and it has a different tax rate. But both mailing addresses use Westlake Village as the city.

Similarly, I have friends that live in Newbury Park, and that's what is on his mailing address. But Newbury Park is just a neighborhood within Thousand Oaks.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#218

Post by WirelessGigabit »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

Comments that are bringing up taxes (which are totally exempted by this bill anyway) and tips (with one small caveat) are completely missing the point. You can have a debate about how to display those items on a price list, but everyone knows about them and they are expected. The whole point of this bill is to prevent bait-and-switch, where loads of unknown or variable fees are tacked on after the price is initially…

What isn't expected is the 3% fee for credit cards, the 2% for additional healthcare.

And yes they are on the menu, but they are hidden on at the end in fine print. I don't think that is correct.

Same goes for say renting a jet-ski. They advertise price X. I select the venue based on advertisement X, because it is cheaper than its neighbor. But the venue tacks on a mandatory $30 refilling fee that I cannot get rid of.

Or a hotel and their resort fees. The only reason it is separate is to show a lower price on the comparison sites.

If it's mandatory, it should be in the price, at least then I can compare.

And I believe that putting a 3% credit card surcharge should also be banned. If they put in a 3% cash discount, I'm fine with that. At least it allows me to compare prices.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#219

Post by WirelessGigabit »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #59
krab wrote: post #14

> Hidden fees are fees in which a seller uses an artificially low headline price to attract a customer and usually either discloses additional required fees in smaller print, or reveals additional unavoidable charges later in the buying process. Like tips?

The hidden fee that I hope this deals with is the mandatory "resort fee" that is showing up more and more frequently on hotel bills. You find an online room rate for $120, go to book it, and it is $120 + $50 resort fee + taxes, and it ends up being > $200.

Hotels are the perfect example where they can show you a final price, as the tax paid is the local price, not the one where you reside.

We can make the argument that it is hard for Amazon to show you the price of widget X, as it changes where it gets shipped.

But for a hotel it doesn't matter whether you fly in from Alaska (no sales tax) or Los Angeles (9.25% I believe)

You pay the rate of the state and city where the hotel is at.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#220

Post by rahimnathwani »

heimidal wrote: post #187
rahimnathwani wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill. Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQV…

You often see the same thing in the UK (a 12.5% "discretionary service charge" listed in small text that you must ask to have removed from your bill).

In this context, 'discretionary' is the opposite of 'mandatory'. This legislation is about mandatory fees.
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