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Impacts of lack of sleep

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Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#211

Post by volkl48 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #196
jmkd wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.

In the US military, new recruits are put on a very early schedule (think: 5:00am wakeup) and an appropriately early bedtime. Within a matter of weeks, they become habituated to it such that everyone's body automatically starts operating on that schedule, even if no one wakes them up in the morning. I am skeptical that there is a biological reason 20-50% of the population can't get up early because it doesn't seem to…

Night owl here.

I've had points in life where school or work demanded I wake up early. After a few weeks I could go to bed and sleep at something approximating the time required for an appropriate night of rest and would automatically wake up at the time required - true.

This sounds like success, but is significantly less so than it sounds:

- It didn't change the time my body wants to do those things.

- Waking up: I'd wake up because it's the time I currently wake up daily and know I need to, but the feeling of wanting to go back to bed for hours was still there - not even feeling like I'm not rested, just a vague sense of "this is a time for sleep". Performance for the first 3-5 hours of my day was noticeably poor.

- Going to bed: With enough practice I could usually sleep early enough. I never once wanted to sleep early enough or actually felt tired when I had to go to bed. I had to have multiple alarms set to go to bed, because even though that was the time I'd been going to bed for months - my body still does not give off a single signal to sleep at that time.

- One single night off-schedule would completely blow up the whole thing and take a week or more to feel back on the schedule fully. Months of being on the "early" schedule could be instantly thrown away and I'd be back on the "late" - adaptation is only required in the unnatural direction, the natural one is instant.

- I have actually spent weeks off-grid hiking and away from screens/artificial light before and the behavior still persists. It's not until hours after dark that I feel tired and I don't naturally want to wake up until far past sunrise. (I am also perfectly happy sleeping in full daylight, room light/darkness has no impact on my sleep).

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#212

Post by mmanfrin »

SoftTalker wrote: post #22
notsurenymore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this pattern of getting really tired in the early afternoon, and then by night time, I would be fully awake. I couldn’t just sleep when I was tired because then I won’t sleep at night, and it just become this terrible cycle. I can’t stay awake at night because things need to be done during the day. It’s been better recently, but some years ago, I would come home from work just completely exhausted and pass out…

I've always been sort of a "night owl" I can stay up to 2 or 3 am pretty easily and like sleeping until 10 or 11am. I seem to get my best "deep" sleep between 6am and 10am.

That was absolutely me too, until about a year ago when I lost the ability to sleep in (at all, I cannot sleep past 8ish). It's been a painful adjusting period.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#213

Post by tasuki »

madaxe_again wrote: post #163
KoftaBob wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My wife still manages 12+ hours per day If she didn't start sleeping those number of hours until after having the baby, this sounds like it could be postpartum depression. I'd recommend she gets evaluated by a psychiatrist to confirm, of course.

She’s always slept like that. I’m in therapy, and am considering starting antidepressants, as the whole shebang is making me suicidal - and I think it’s mostly just the constant, gnawing exhaustion - I feel like I have flies crawling around behind my eyes. The sun pisses me off. I shout and swear at the stars at night. Poor kid is stuck in the middle. Doing my best for both of them, I really am, but I gravely underes…

Why did you have children?

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#214

Post by dahart »

MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #197
dahart wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah suggestions about what to do, sans anything helpful about how to do it, are just annoying, especially when the thing is hard to do. That said, there’s a very big difference between doesn’t work and can’t work. Humans are pretty adaptable given the right circumstances, so I’d wager we’re talking mostly about the doesn’t category. Your comment totally reminds me of many conversations I’ve heard and read about weig…

I think the point may have been more that many people have chronotypes [1] that negate the benefits of changing a sleep schedule to something that fits your waking schedule. Doing this may allow for better time allocations, but comes at the cost of the effectiveness of your forced circadian rhythm. [1] https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes

Oh no I might have accidentally stepped on a small land mine. Circadian rhythms aren’t permanent. If they were, international travel would be impossible for humans. Circadian rhythms are defined as entrainable, meaning adjustments to the environment must change the rhythm. I might have to walk this back some day, but right now that site you linked gives me vibes of homeopathy. There’s a non-zero amount of irony in asking if individual humans identify with different animal species, isn’t there? The idea that an animal species as a whole sleeps at a given time undermines the very idea that each human is a unique snowflake, and suggests that the variation in humans that we’re talking about is not fixed, but is a product of environment, habits, behaviors, situational preferences, etc., doesn’t it? I mean we have lots and lots and lots of evidence that humans can change sleep schedule when they have to, and that preferences largely come from what we’re used to, no?

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#215

Post by iagooar »

WXLCKNO wrote: post #192
iagooar wrote: post #117

If I could go back 10 years and talk to myself from the past, I would definitely tell myself: get away from that screen from time to time, especially on weekends. Buy a cheap 4x4 and GET OUT THERE. Get exercise, get fresh air, get to see the world through your own eyes instead of through a 2D screen, get physically tired, AVOID if possible any alcohol intake (this is a whole different topic, but alcohol might destroy…

How old are you?

Almost in my 40s

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#216

Post by nikkwong »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #122
nikkwong wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may not necessarily be totally true, you're most likely referring to hypnotics (ambien, lunesta, etc)—which were used by doctors for patients in some circumstances but are slowly falling out of fashion for the reasons you describe. There are older and newer classes of drugs on the market that are being used as first-line therapies which not only preserve sleep architecture but in many cases even enhance it. Traz…

How did you come across desmopressin, isnt that a bed-wetting thing? How does it help with sleep outside of urinary issues?

It’s not strictly for bedwetting. I’d generally wake up a few times a night to urinate and I’d noticed that my sleep would become very fragmented for 30-60min before actually being fully awaken to void. Knowing that this was affecting my sleep quality, I tried limiting fluids and compression socks. Neither fully worked, so a pharmaceutical intervention seemed worth a try when I stumbled upon it online. The difference is night and day, I sleep throughout the night rather than the multiple awakenings I had been susceptible to. My urine is also a dark yellow upon awakening rather than the clearish tint I had been accustomed to.

My blood work is normal but my gut floras are not in perfect ratios as revealed by some testing. For some reason in my case that has manifested as electrolyte/fluid balance issues at night which are corrected by the desmopressin.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#217

Post by nikkwong »

mmanfrin wrote: post #210
nikkwong wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may not necessarily be totally true, you're most likely referring to hypnotics (ambien, lunesta, etc)—which were used by doctors for patients in some circumstances but are slowly falling out of fashion for the reasons you describe. There are older and newer classes of drugs on the market that are being used as first-line therapies which not only preserve sleep architecture but in many cases even enhance it. Traz…

This is good advice, thank you. I've tried Trazodone, but it gave me really strange nightmares (as someone who never has nightmares). I've found Gabapentin to be useful, but recently it's been less effective and I've had to up the dosage which gives me a bit of anxiety over wondering where that stops. In the last 6 months the level of exercise I get has skyrocketed, and I thought it would help but it's ironically mad…

Yeah, that’s strange; I’d say keep investigating. Again I think it’s about cost benefit. I’ve had a few friends who tried trazodone off my remarks and the ramping on period is tough for many. Sometimes the side effects go away and maybe sometimes they don’t.

I’ve meditated a lot in the past to the point where I have a very strong representation of my inner mental state; and because of this it’s glaringly obvious to me when I’m even slightly mentally impaired from even minor sleep disturbances. I think some people may not notice the cognitive attenuation as acutely and for others it may not bother them much.

But if it bothers you keep investigating. As far as exercise making it worse; I’m not sure about that. One thing I do know is that the microbiome plays a key role in exercise recovery, and it’s possible that if you have impaired homeostasis in the gut it could be responsible for sleep disturbances. Maybe you could check your RHR and HRV for the hours or days after a session of exercise and see how long it takes you to return to baseline. People with ideal microbiome profiles return to baseline remarkably quickly even when they don’t have great cardiovascular fitness (from my understanding of the literature). This next point is a bit speculative but another possibility is that exercise forces more slow wave and rem sleep. These are the periods in which people are the most likely to suffer apnea events for those who are susceptible to it. If you’re one of those individuals then the increased number of those events could leave you feeling less refreshed. So that’s another thing that could be worth looking into

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#218

Post by guidoism »

cma wrote: post #30
guidoism wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly confident that the lack of sleep during my first child’s first two years permanently altered my brain in way that has seriously affected my ability to do my job. I think there is research to back my claim that sleep can change your brain just as trauma does.

The thing to realize is your (I am presuming) inflexible job was probably as responsible as your kid. They should let you work very flexible hours if you just had a kid unless by nature it just can't be done for that job.

Reasonable assumption but in this case I was able to be flexible enough. The problem was my child not sleeping more than a couple hours at a time and our stupid adherence to the "baby should sleep in a different rule" in the US.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#219

Post by manmal »

000ooo000 wrote: post #5

For me, I find my sleep suffers because of what some describe as "revenge bedtime procrastination". When my job is shit (i.e. now), I'm more inclined to stay on the PC later doing things that bring me some level of joy, or play games to escape the mind spinning its wheels. I seem to more easily recognise that my job is unfulfilling because I'm staying up later or I'm dreading going to bed. Going to bed early for a go…

I can highly recommend listening to fiction audiobooks instead of playing games. I‘ve been listening to a few series (latest one the Red Rising series) and only seldomly stayed awake past midnight. With the lights out, I‘ve found it hard not falling asleep with an audiobook.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#220

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

dahart wrote: post #214
MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point may have been more that many people have chronotypes [1] that negate the benefits of changing a sleep schedule to something that fits your waking schedule. Doing this may allow for better time allocations, but comes at the cost of the effectiveness of your forced circadian rhythm. [1] https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes

Oh no I might have accidentally stepped on a small land mine. Circadian rhythms aren’t permanent. If they were, international travel would be impossible for humans. Circadian rhythms are defined as entrainable, meaning adjustments to the environment must change the rhythm. I might have to walk this back some day, but right now that site you linked gives me vibes of homeopathy. There’s a non-zero amount of irony in as…

I may have some terminology off. The point of chronotypes is to sort out the what, who, and why of "morning people", "night owls" and various states between. I don't care for the animal metaphors either, and they can easily be omitted with no loss of value. As a "night owl" myself, I have anecdotally found that while I can certainly force myself to function early in the morning on a regular basis, my body never stops hating that even after years of doing so. The best times for me to get up and go to sleep are closer to 10 am and 2 am, respectively. The chronotypes system proposed here was useful in helping contextualize all that.
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