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I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

adayinthelifeof.nl

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Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#211
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

People inevitably will come and say this is futile because writing a browser that supports the "modern web" is just too big an undertaking. I would like to encourage you to ignore them and write a browser that works with a subset you decide to be useful and never feel bad if some pages don't work.

I know it is kind of hypocritical for me to say that, because I come from a generation that fought for standardization and against all the "This page works best with IE4", but I've come to the realization that while we certainly have progressed we've not really accomplished what we'd set out to.

Nowadays, I certainly would not refuse to use a browser just because it only supports a subset of pages and sites. Heck, a browser without Facebook and Youtube might even be a good thing.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#212
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stuff is bad, fascism is on the rise, mega corporations control more and more wealth, those two things feed on each other, book banning in the US, war in Ukraine, my country is burning due to global warming, ... and all of this bad news damages the psyche. Turn off the news. We are living in unprecedentedly peaceful and prosperous times, and it's only getting better day by day. That is a fact. If you feel otherwise…

> We are living in unprecedentedly peaceful and prosperous times, and it's only getting better day by day. There are a lot of people who are a definitely NOT more prosperous or peaceful. Democracy is decreasing world wide. Young people in the US are NOT as prosperous as their parents and grandparents were at their age. Global warming is causing serious issues which we are only beginning to address. Maybe things are g…

Clearly, too much mainstream. About democracy, true. They could also be eroding private property. Besides those two things, everything is better: trchnology, better medicine, access to good education, longer livlfe expectation...

I hope you are not (I saw this a loooot) one of those people that to correct democracy things we should tell people what to do, think or say or not or what to love, hate, like, dislike or how to behave. I say this because I lived in Asia for 12 years and I see the westerner world collapsing on those premises.

Greetings.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#213
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

I would say though that you have to pick your battles. On your path you might vanquish shitty web sites but just not being able to read them, but I think a real victory against enshittification involves breaking away from the web user interface which is some of why there has been so much bot blocking lately. It's not that people are going train an LLM on a shitty site but that you're going to get the LLM to read the shitty site for you, that is the real death of shitty sites. (e.g. agent posts your question to Reddit on your behalf, picks out and summarizes the best answer; instead of looking at craigslist every day for farm animals you get notified of the good ones; instead of seeing an ad for a Laurie Anderson concert on the bus when the tickets are all sold out the system tells you the moment the tickets go on sale...) But who knows? An HTML 5 parser is a good place to start towards that end.

I had similar motivations for developing my smart RSS reader and intelligent agent YOShInOn which has gotten me to work on filtering and "deshittification" right away as opposed to face a 1500 man x year project before getting to the stuff that matters to me.

For me the path not taken was developing a "reader" that works like archive.today, there was a summmer in the pandemic when my son and I were driving back and forth to Buffalo a lot and talking about missile defense systems and I did a "spike" project to develop something that would archive, process and deshittify web pages and I came to the conclusion that it was a long road to make something that was better instead of worse (every archiver I've seen is way slower than just browsing the page and sorry "slow X" advocates, slow = bad)

This winter I turned to the problem of end-to-end active learning for selecting articles and had great success as it. Sometime it sends me to archive.today but the goddamn CAPTCHAs never end when I use it from home so the question of the archiver/reader has come back but now that the thing has a workflow engine and could archive articles before I look at them the archiver/reader looks appealing if I can find something open source that is good enough.

There's a commercial product

https://www.getupnext.com/

which took the opposite approach of developing a reader and now they are working on recommendations. That's a path that makes sense because the reader cleans up the text which in principle is good for NLP but for what I am doing I think the signals in dirty text have enough value that I am doing just fine. They've got the issue that they're very unlikely to really develop content-based recommendation for a multi-user system because collaborative filter is such a good shortcut, also YOShInOn uses a Tik Tok style interface which for some reason has hardly been tried despite being a hit with Stumbleupon, this interface collects good negative samples and gets great results with a simple classifer... if you get a few 1000 judgements.*

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#214
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

Good to see someone do this.

Funny I was thinking about this recently - I've been trying to push for action from regulators / government here in NL (especially wrt Google) but there was very little appetite with the people I'd need to convince to stand with me to make something happen.

Considered briefly starting a new browser. However I've had experience attempting to design a very simple OS (a long long time ago, I got a mouse/pointer working on the C64 then realised that it wasn't worth it).. and modern OSes and browsers are of a similar level of complexity.

So now I'm focused first on family (due to working insane hours the last few years they've been neglected - pretty sure you worked a little bit on the same projects so know where I'm getting at) and a bit later in the year on something where I have a >50% chance of seeing results - fixing healthcare IT here in Europe. If I can say anything it would be to remember that as a parent - especially one who wants to be responsible and present - we don't have a lot of space available for serious side projects.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#215
I think that regardless of whether this project has any chance of succeeding, it's worth pursuing for at least this reason: practice.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that no matter how much experience you have, you should practice.

Every skill that isn't practiced wanes over time. Commercial projects usually don't provide the sort of regular stimulation needed to improve one's abilities. Sometimes it's not even enough to maintain them.

Even if they do, you should probably not rely on that, because it leads to design decisions that scratch that itch instead of getting the job done.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#216
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

Good to see someone do this. Funny I was thinking about this recently - I've been trying to push for action from regulators / government here in NL (especially wrt Google) but there was very little appetite with the people I'd need to convince to stand with me to make something happen. Considered briefly starting a new browser. However I've had experience attempting to design a very simple OS (a long long time ago, I…

(oh and my side project is a C64 emulator, also in Rust, ground up.. only said being a parent thing means I'm only at the research phase, although to the point where I have all of the resources I need to begin productive work sans the 8-16 hrs of quiet time to start coding + get the write-test-deliver loop up and running)

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#217
post #7

There are a lot of words the author used to simply say, "I'm going to start my pet project, which I also believe is going to fail very soon for a number of reasons" Not much actual good content here.

There are a lot of words you used to simply say "I didn't find much actual good content there."

Not much of a contribution to the discussion here.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#218
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stuff is bad, fascism is on the rise, mega corporations control more and more wealth, those two things feed on each other, book banning in the US, war in Ukraine, my country is burning due to global warming, ... and all of this bad news damages the psyche. Turn off the news. We are living in unprecedentedly peaceful and prosperous times, and it's only getting better day by day. That is a fact. If you feel otherwise…

> We are living in unprecedentedly peaceful and prosperous times, and it's only getting better day by day. The Deputy Secretary-General of the UN begs to differ [1]. I like a positive attitude, but outright ignoring the reality is not the solution to handle negative developments in the world imo. Sure, statistics can lie but saying things are better than ever and always getting better is also not a fact as you say. […

The Deputy Secretary-General of the UN might be one of the most news-brainwashed people on earth. The saviour complex you need to have to even join the UN is insane. We should not be taking advice from these out of touch billionaires.

That press release is some fear-based BS.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#219
post #106
post #24

"Writing a browser" (from scratch) at this point basically means you are implementing a type of portable operating-system-in-a-box (the web platform) and that it will be compatible with whatever Google decides to add to theirs. The browser is so comprehensive in functionality and APIs, and such a challenge to keep up with Google's constant churn of new features and total dominance, that not even Microsoft could do it…

Am I wrong in thinking the only thing we're missing for a rich ecosystem of browsers is a modular, independent Javascript runtime/interpreter similar to Java? Java has a bunch of JVMs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines Maybe we need Mozilla (and others) to make an independent Javascript "VM" that everybody can use.

Mozilla and Google each has one, both open source (iirc). NodeJS uses Chrome's, even.

Re: I'm fed up with it, so I'm writing a browser

#220
post #59

OP here. Thanks for the pos/neg/neutral comments everybody. Some remarks: Yes, there are a lot of browsers out there where I can contribute to which would be more efficient. But that would result in just a few browsers instead of a lot of browsers. I'm all for the last one, as this would give people options. This IS a pet project. I never told anyone otherwise. I would start writing it even when I wasn't fed up with…

You shouldn't have to write this response on 'hacker' news, but good for you. Work on what you want. Some people do wood working, fix cars, or play video games. Others like coding. I have tons of partial projects I've started for various reasons, and enjoyed them all. Good luck and have fun. And, maybe your project does turn into something bigger.

Well said. I couldn't agree more!

Good luck to the OP!

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