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Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

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Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#211
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, even here in Germany you would probably get fired for being ill for so long unless you had already passed your 1 year probation. My wife had a boss who used to fire people for absolutely anything

It's true that you can be fired during the probationary period, for any reason including "excessive" sick leave. But the probationary period is limited to six months, by law.

The probationary period at my wife's job here in Hamburg was a year

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#212
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head. https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tuto…

You're on the nose. Dismissing mystery symptoms like this is doctor 101. As it happens we do have research on ME/CFS causes and biomarkers such as gut dysbiosis toxins[1], deficient SCFA production[2], elevated rates of enterovirus[3] and herpesvirus[4](particularly EBV, HHV-6 and -7) infections. Coincidentally, every single of those things is associated with dementia in old age. Absolutely everything points at the o…

I just want to clarify that I absolutely agree that there are a multitude of pathophysiologoc changes in cfsers, including mitochondrial dysfunction, hrv changes, ongoing viral reactivations, deranged cytokines etc. I think the difference in our opinions is just that I my opinion, these physiological changes are downstream of cns dynamics in the lateral frontal pole, pituitary gland, amygdala, and cerebral cortex. At any rate - thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#213
post #112

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head. https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tuto…

There is a huge amount of empirical evidence that adverse childhood experiences disrupt the HPA-axis as well as other biological systems. It's also well-known that people with PTSD have low cortisol. These aren't controversial findings. They've been found over and over.

I have CPTSD and it's very clear to me that the symptoms of this "mental disorder" are in my body, first and foremost. And it's clear that after I go through a flashback, I'll end up going through symptoms that many would describe as chronic fatigue syndrome or adrenal fatigue. So I don't think the comment is to say "It's all in your head", but to say that the mind and body are actually connected. (Shocking!) It's a two-way street. I'm actually relieved to see a medical professional say something that I've been thinking for the past few years.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> consuming two crushed garlic cloves daily how did you find out about that? did this affect your romantic life?

Have your partner eat two as well. Problem solved!

that's not exactly how it works ... :/

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#215
post #213
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head. https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tuto…

There is a huge amount of empirical evidence that adverse childhood experiences disrupt the HPA-axis as well as other biological systems. It's also well-known that people with PTSD have low cortisol. These aren't controversial findings. They've been found over and over. I have CPTSD and it's very clear to me that the symptoms of this "mental disorder" are in my body, first and foremost. And it's clear that after I go…

Love to see this response, thanks.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it such an issue that people deny it? Viruses can cause organ tissue damages, that's enough for me to believe a virus can cause all sort of "syndromes" I'm not on the denier side but harass me with fear, threats, and free movement mandates and I will deny that syndromes even exist.

My girlfriend's sister suffers from Long Covid for going on 2yrs now. Some of the problems she had early on is that most doctors wrote her off as either lying or anxiety. More than one ER doc said there's no way that Covid could ever cause lasting symptoms other than lung damage, which she didn't have, so it's likely just anxiety. There was one DO she saw, during an admit for tachycardia, who said that he believed th…

Women in particular get a lot of 'mental' diagnoses for actual physical ailments. Endometriosis seems to be one of those terrible things that women are told to suffer with, then later if they have exploratory surgery they find terrible lesions inside their body.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#217
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think before you write, this is extremely offensive.

I didn't say all or even a majority were exaggerating symptoms, I simply said that many were. Part of my justification was a number of studies which have found psychological distress over catching COVID as a strong predictor of long Covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9825049/

I dunno, the most people I know with psychological distress over catching covid are people who would be greatest at risk of long covid. People with a history of weak hearts or lungs, athsmatics, people who have existing post-viral infection type diseases, people who are too poor to afford to take off work...

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depression may not be psychosomatic. It may be somatopsychic. Some physical ailments have psychological and emotional side effects. Depression may be rooted in physical ailments negatively impacting mood and brain function.

I don't even understand the distinction you are trying to make. Your mind is part of your physical body. If you are depressed then it is constitutively a physical ailment. Are people just this bought into mind-body dualism like two centuries later?

It's the difference between a woman with a worm in her head experiencing depression and brain fog (because, y'know, a parasitic worm was in her head) and claiming her depression had caused a parastic worm to appear in her head

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#219

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

What you're looking at is people with really bad gut microbiomes or other ongoing infections, not "CSS" - the behavior you're describing is called sickness behavior[1] and is produced by ongoing infections and blood infiltration by bacterial toxins like LPS (which coincidentally is used to induce mouse models of depression) Rhetoric like yours is why most chronically ill people suffer for years and decades before get…

Well - I myself had cfs and found that pacing and mindfulness really helped! I think these approaches have been empowering for both myself and hundreds of my patients. And there is some clinical research there to back my opinions up. however I am always open to and hopeful that other approaches like those that go via the microbiome, will be helpful.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#220
post #161

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

How does this theory line up with the my experience, which seems to be similar to a lot of people with CFS: I had high energy levels until I suddenly got sick, and had a mild fever for about a day. After that I had the sort of fatigue one feels when having the flu, except it lasted for about 8 months, and then gradually lifted. After that my energy levels totally recovered and stayed normal for over a decade. All tes…

Yes that’s pretty typical. Some people go in stepwise, some go in all at once. I think you got lucky with your complete recovery, although that is common after about a year for long Covid in particular.
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