Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market • Hacker News Board

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#211

Post by Nursie » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #31

I wonder what the second-order consequences will be. That is, people will still want to signal their commitment/ability to provide when proposing, so the drop in the price of diamonds won't necessarily reduce the overall outlay. Instead, it would shift the expense to another category (platinum or other expensive metals) or simply lead people to buy more carats (4 is the new 2!). In some ways, these moves could help l…

> people will still want to signal their commitment/ability to provide when proposing

Will they? Why?

People getting married these days are far more likely to already live together, maybe own a house together. These sorts of signals to each other seem somewhat pointless. Especially as it's common for both partners to work, making it somewhat anachronistic for one partner to have this expectation on them.

This whole idea of stupidly expensive diamonds signalling commitment is just marketing bullshit, that has been so ingrained that people think it's somehow natural or necessary. If that's falling away piece by piece then that's something to celebrate.

Now the other form of signalling - "I am high status, look at my high-status shiny stuff", yeah that's not going anywhere.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#212

Post by listenallyall » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:47 AM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #154

bluedevil2k wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be said of BMWs, Philip Patek, Louis Vuitton, and dozens of other luxury brands. People like buying status signals, but it doesn’t signal how “non-advanced” we are. It’s how society has always worked and will always work.

Surely it does - the fact that most people—or large numbers of people—are still incapable of distinguishing between when they are exchanging their dollars for something that has no value beyond the hype behind it and making good financial decisions shows we, as a society, have a long ways to go in improving how we teach ourselves and others to value stuff. It’s one of many things we have to improve on, but rocks purc…

It's not really bullshit, it is a physical manifestation of the commitment that is supposed to accompany a marriage. People are human, the stone is both a reminder of the vows that they took as well as a sacrifice the husband made to demonstrate love and commitment for that particular spouse. Yes of course it doesn't have to be a diamond per se, but that's basically what the entire world has agreed upon for this particular gesture. And because the entire world recognizes it, it does have value "beyond the hype."

Placing a hand on the Bible before testifying in court, physically signing a legal document, are both the same concept... a symbolic, physical representation of an intangible promise

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#213

Post by londgine » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

rcme wrote: post #182

typest wrote: post #104

I just got engaged. When we looked at rings, the jeweler asked my fiancé if she wanted natural or synthetic, and she responded “I don’t want a blood diamond!!” Of course, mined diamonds aren’t blood diamonds, but her impression was still they were a little ickier. The jeweler told me that one reason to get a natural diamond was that the prices of lab grown diamonds had been falling, whereas natural hasn’t as much, so…

Yea lab grown diamonds are insanely cheap. You can buy them on Alibaba. A 3 carat, D VVS1 with an excellent cut is $3K.

$3k is a bit much for me to feel comfortable spending at a store well known for selling Chinese knockoffs. Is there a way for a layman to test that the stone is indeed a diamond, and not something like lab made cubic zirconia?

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#214

Post by MathMonkeyMan » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:56 AM UTC

intrasight wrote: post #208

javajosh wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be negative, but I think the conventions around marriage needs to be redone alongside all the other changes around marriage. To wit, the ability of a woman to divorce you and receive alimony and child support for basically the rest of her life. It's not clear to me what reason a rational person has for NOT getting divorced after enough time has elapsed that alimony is possible. Roughly 50% of marriages end i…

In many places (and all the ones where I've lived) it is the state that determines that you are married and not the couple. You may try to improve your odds with a prenup, but according to my friends that have tried, it doesn't offer much protection.

A divorce lawyer in New Jersey told me that 1/3 of the prenups she sees end up making any difference.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#215

Post by thehappypm » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

jncfhnb wrote: post #157

typest wrote: post #104

I just got engaged. When we looked at rings, the jeweler asked my fiancé if she wanted natural or synthetic, and she responded “I don’t want a blood diamond!!” Of course, mined diamonds aren’t blood diamonds, but her impression was still they were a little ickier. The jeweler told me that one reason to get a natural diamond was that the prices of lab grown diamonds had been falling, whereas natural hasn’t as much, so…

Go with moissanite. Vastly cheaper. Looks better.

Less durable tho

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#216

Post by MerelyMortal » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #205

typest wrote: post #104

I just got engaged. When we looked at rings, the jeweler asked my fiancé if she wanted natural or synthetic, and she responded “I don’t want a blood diamond!!” Of course, mined diamonds aren’t blood diamonds, but her impression was still they were a little ickier. The jeweler told me that one reason to get a natural diamond was that the prices of lab grown diamonds had been falling, whereas natural hasn’t as much, so…

> so the ring would hold more value A nice little white lie by omission anyway, as the resale value of a diamond drops up to 50% when it leaves the store! If you were planning for an investment, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

If you want to make the retailer uncomfortable, ask how much they would buy it back for.

Retailers don't even own their inventory, it's on loan and they only pay the diamond cartel when they sell a diamond.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#217

Post by rcme » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:07 AM UTC

londgine wrote: post #213

rcme wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea lab grown diamonds are insanely cheap. You can buy them on Alibaba. A 3 carat, D VVS1 with an excellent cut is $3K.

$3k is a bit much for me to feel comfortable spending at a store well known for selling Chinese knockoffs. Is there a way for a layman to test that the stone is indeed a diamond, and not something like lab made cubic zirconia?

Use a credit card, take it to be tested, and do a charge back for fraud if it doesn’t meet specifications.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#218

Post by Nursie » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:18 AM UTC

jaaron wrote: post #61

slashdev wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me. There’s no real logic in it. But given it’s a status symbol that derives its value from its rareness, I suppose it’s no different than a Luis Vutton or a Rolex. It’s not about the function, it’s about the fact that you can afford one. I hate that mentality,…

> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities. For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc. If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same funct…

> In this case, your wife values the story of a natural diamond that was formed through long, natural processes and required the effort of finding, excavating, cutting and so on.

I see this come up a lot, but I doubt very much that this story forms a large part of many people's thinking.

People want the status symbol and they want what they perceive as the ‘real’ thing, not what they rightly or wrongly perceive as an imitation.

As such ‘natural’ diamonds currently have successful marketing around them. I really don’t think the geology figures in many peoples minds. Geologists excepted of course.

Humans are indeed story telling machines, but you know what else they are? Hierarchy-driven apes who love showing off shiny, expensive shit to make themselves appear high status. The emergence of chemically, physically identical synthetic diamonds has triggered this in really very predictable ways - rationalisations of prior behaviour and desperate searching for ways to utilise this new phenomenon to maintain or elevate status.

The story here is a prime example. When both 'prettier' and 'not real' can no longer be defended, a new rationalisation for the large outlay of cash, and new explanation of how this makes the outlayer special, must be found. It doesn't have to be true (please don't try to tell me that all women have some sort of innate appreciation of carbon geology, I'm sorry but I don't believe it) it just has to sound right and allow the teller of the tale to continue to claim the high ground.

Because otherwise we have to face up to questions like "Did I spend all that and not prove I'm better than Bob who spent half as much?" and "Was I just doing this because of peer pressure and societal expectations? What does that say about me?"

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#219

Post by jdietrich » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:45 AM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #198

solardev wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it still cost so much?

A 3 karat diamond is still a crystal (approximately) the size of your pinkie nail that takes a fairly large energy input to create... and only the ones that've grown clear and without flaws are viable for jewelry purposes. The bigger it gets, the lower the yields are at the appropriate quality level, and so the more effort / waste is involved in getting one. (As opposed to industrial diamond uses, which mostly don't…

Silicon is a cheap, abundant material. Making very large, very pure silicon crystals for the semiconductor industry is complex and expensive.

The small, ugly diamonds we use for industrial abrasives cost pennies per carat.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#220

Post by javajosh » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #192

javajosh wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be negative, but I think the conventions around marriage needs to be redone alongside all the other changes around marriage. To wit, the ability of a woman to divorce you and receive alimony and child support for basically the rest of her life. It's not clear to me what reason a rational person has for NOT getting divorced after enough time has elapsed that alimony is possible. Roughly 50% of marriages end i…

> It's not clear to me what reason a rational person has for NOT getting divorced after enough time has elapsed that alimony is possible. I mean, assuming that you like your spouse, it's a perfectly rational decision to stay with them despite it being possible to make money by leaving them. It's economics-paper level sociopathy to suggest that "I could maximize my personal income by divorcing the person I love" is an…

Believe it or not, love is not a constant, it's a time-dependent function.