"Lighten up" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Lighten up"

#211

Post by chromatic » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #180

Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys? Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together. I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen i…

... it's what we do to fit in...

If you quite obviously don't share some obvious and dominant characteristic of a group, repeated reminders that You. Don't. Fit. In. are frustrating and demotivating, at best.

Re: "Lighten up"

#212

Post by InclinedPlane » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #207

InclinedPlane wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know you lack sufficient power to effect change if you don't try?

Who said nobody tried? Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?

Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example.

Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?

Re: "Lighten up"

#213

Post by xbryanx » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Every time you're ready to make a comment like that (which is WAY beyond inappropriate) imagine saying it to your sister, imagine saying it when you are the only many in the room, imagine a situation where you are not the dominant one with the power.

Re: "Lighten up"

#214

Post by Drbble » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

sek wrote: post #70

aklemm wrote: post #21

Do you think reaching some critical mass of female developers (say 20%) will help prevent the problem? Perhaps an industry goal of reaching 20% female developers would be worthwhile (who would set such a goal?) These problems also exist in the boardroom and some have pointed out that it takes 3 women at the table in order for the rest of the room to treat them fairly. If it's just one, she's sidelined. If it's two, t…

The other factor is the stereotype in our media culture, look how Hollywood still pictures Nerds and technically versatile Women. A women who is good with computers and not a confident sexy goddess is automatically a looser.

In pop media, everyone not a confident sexy god/goddess is a loser.

Re: "Lighten up"

#215

Post by hythloday » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:31 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #181

nollidge wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You're part of the problem if you're part of the problem. That's it. "White-knighting" is a bullshit Orwellian term designed to make sexist assholes feel justified. As though defending against sexism under an assumed name on an Internet message board in order to earn sexual favors from fawning women. No, the real reason I'm "white-knighting" is because I think it's shitty to make people feel uncomfortable for who…

> No, the real reason I'm "white-knighting" is because I think it's shitty to make people feel uncomfortable for who they are. I don't think you get it. Your "white-knighting" on the internet does so little for the cause you're claiming to be fighting for that it begs the assumption of an ulterior motive. That motive does not have to be "getting sexual favors." It can also be, hey, looking really great and noble and…

Assuming by villainized you mean down-voted, pretty much every grey comment in this thread is by a man making the assumption that their experience of the world is women's experience. That's just not true; claiming so is not "rationality"--it's literally the definition of bias.

Re: "Lighten up"

#216

Post by Jabbles » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #210

Jabbles wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem. You are a horrible person.

Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?

Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. The situation isn't really comparable.

Also, I'm not accusing Katie of cowardice.

Re: "Lighten up"

#217

Post by pingswept » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #186

pingswept wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

Well, male coworkers pick on each other all the time. Even when they have absolutely no incentive to hurt, once there's an awkward situation and they can say something smart - they'll fire. Most if nor all of humor revolves around something bad happening to someone. That's what funny. (In normal workplace setting women are actually shielded from that friendly fire because men don't feel as comfortable/can't predict w…

I agree with your description of how humor typically happens, and because of that, I don't enjoy working in most places. While it seems "fun is fun" for you, the same fun sucks for me.

But I'd suggest that an alternative exists-- you can actually be hilarious without knocking other people down. I think that's a worthy goal.

Re: "Lighten up"

#218

Post by mturmon » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

b_emery wrote: post #106

As an employee of the University of California, I'm compelled to take annual sexual harassment training, that is, how to identify situations and behaviors that constitute sexual harassment as it has been legally defined. A lot of what was mentioned in the post and in the comments here would be regarded as reportable offenses, if not prosecutable offenses. People should know the law - this stuff can get you in real tr…

All the above is true.

Incidentally, according to interpretations of US and CA law, it is OK to do things like (politely) ask a co-worker out on a date. But, if they say no, you are supposed to get the hint, and if you continue to ask, you're opening yourself up to charges of harassment.

From the training I took, my understanding is that if the low-cut dress comment or comments like it was repeated in the presence of a manager, the manager would have to act in some way. (A manager has a duty to not allow a "hostile work environment".)

Depending on the specifics of who was at the meeting, it does not matter that the person in the dress didn't mind, because it's not just about conduct a specific person finds unwelcome, it's about a hostile work environment.

Some people up-thread are more in the wrong about this than they seem to realize.

Re: "Lighten up"

#219

Post by javascriptlol » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

The problem with these posts is that we only hear the horror stories. We get a sensational picture of constant harassment from one unlucky person. Most of what was written here was outright harassment. In many places it would be seen as outright illegal for the company to allow this to continue.

I take issue with complaining about "subtle" sexism, however. Life is not fair for men either. In fact, unfairness is universal in life for reasons that are out of anybody's control. By pushing for unobtainable fairness, you are training people to expect fairness, which is disabling. Boys are attacked by other boys in school. You are constantly tested by other males for signs of fear. Big deal. It toughens you up for later life. Gender "equality" in many ways has become just another production output to be maximised without regard to secondary costs.

Re: "Lighten up"

#220

Post by veb » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addre…

> As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers').

Had a new project manager/analyst join a few months ago, and he bakes a different cake for us each week. it's awesome. :)