Live data from Hacker News

Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

dynomight.net

211–220 of 386 posts

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#211
post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument.

It’s not, and I think your view ignores a really important fact about our society. Ownership of wealth in America is relatively diffuse. The top 1% owns only 32% of the wealth. And even the top 1%, which starts at about $12 million net worth, covers a lot of people who aren’t exactly the ownership class.

Much of the power in society is therefore held by a class of non-owner managers that run these enormous institutions. Folks like Jamie Dimon and Tim Cook are billionaires, but they made that money by being very highly compensated employees of institutions in which their equity interest is negligible. Many layers of managers beneath those executives also wield tremendous power.

Institutions like Harvard serve as gatekeepers to those roles. They also serve as gatekeepers to adjacent industries, such as finance and law, that not only are lucrative, but also exert tremendous power.

And as credentialism has overtaken society, the same class of Harvard-educated professionals have come to run everything else as well. When an expert agency sues a corporation over some important issue, it’s highly likely that the agency expert policymakers, the agency lawyers, the corporation’s lawyers, the corporation’s management, the judge, and the journalist reporting on the case all went to Harvard or one of a handful of other elite schools. They all went to school together, they attend reunions and weddings together, their kids end up marrying each other.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#212
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “On a personal note, I was accepted to an Ivy League school (though not Harvard) as a high school senior, but my family couldn't afford to send me there, so I had to go to a state school instead. My classmate and friend was accepted to MIT but also had to go to a state school because of money.” This does fit my hypothesis that the outliers at state schools are likely undervalued in the market by recruiters. The ave…

> the outliers at state schools are people like you with extenuating circumstances. Being middle class is an extenuating circumstance? ;-)

I just meant things like couldn’t afford tuition, don’t know how or can’t get loans, or couldn’t move from family, or w/e - someone who was accepted but didn’t go due to stuff unrelated to getting in (my dad was also in this category). Some large percentage of people think they’re middle class so it’s hard to know what that means without specifics.

A lot of elite schools do cover tuition now if your parents are below a certain income, but it’s imperfect and doesn’t scale with number of siblings etc.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#213
post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

My kid is only in middle school and I recently been readjusting my opinion towards 'elite' colleges. Being from the Bay Area we have friends and family who graduated from Stanford and Cal and up until recently I thought those were good schools for my kid to set their sights on.

What I've seen in the last year or so is making me reconsider. I see the profiles of the top graduating seniors in our newsletters and they read like parodies. 4.9 GPA - check. Sports teams - check. Competitive academic club - check. Social clubs - check. Musical instrument competitions - check. Leadership roles - check. Volunteer roles- check. It's just so cynical after a while. You know some consultant has been hired with a todo list and they've dutifully filled in every box.

Then the kids I know who've gotten in and gone to these elite schools are really struggling. Struggling in ways that I didn't see when my peers and I were going to these schools. There's been a sea change in expectations and requirements.

In the meantime it's the kids I know who got into the "second-tier" schools who are doing well. They aren't under such high expectations, they aren't surrounded by classmates under such high expectations. If some day they don't get hired by a FAANG or a some Wall Street firm than maybe that's for the best too.

I was talking to a couple of high school seniors from Germany recently and it all sounded so sane. All the state colleges are free and all are good. You fill out one application, rank the ones you want to get into, and wait for your letter.

I can make guesses as to how it all got so insane in the US but it doesn't matter much. I don't want to play. I don't want my kid to play.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#214
post #55
post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

I totally agree that Harvard has (and should have) a right to do whatever they want with their institution and admit whoever they see fit. But if we're serious about a liberal/conservative "equality of opportunity" vs a progressive/socialist "equality of outcome" reality, then we should consider that children have very little consent over the kind of education and familial upbringing they get, yet that childhood educ…

If we truly consider children's consent, then we would need to actually ask them what they want before bothering with any adult-born ideas. Otherwise, they're still trapped in a system they never designed, only being given the options chosen for them.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#215
Harvard is obviously a problem. Does any institution work against the interests of the people that fund it? Rich people fund Harvard. Harvard will work in the interests of rich people. Meritocracy is not in the in the interests of rich people.

Harvard is just a pay to play gated community.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#216
post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

For this reason there's a pretty good argument to be made that legacy and donation status shouldn't be taken into account when determining admissions. Ditching standardized testing, however, is going in the wrong direction.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#217

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

The existence of billionaires and millionaires negatively affects everyone else's standard of living via gentrification. Imagine you live in a community of 1000 middle class people, all making, say, $30K/yr to $60K/yr. You make $45K/year so you're about average. You can all afford homes, goods, and so on. Suddenly, 10 millionaires move in. Housing prices start to rise a little bit, grocery stores get a little more up…

> Suddenly, 10 millionaires move in. Housing prices start to rise a little bit, grocery stores get a little more upscale and more expensive, car dealers see $$$ and jack up their prices

Except that no; prices would almost not budge at all. Each millionaire will buy 2, maybe 3 houses. But they will target the nice and expensive home; the price/demand for middle/low class houses will not change at all.

Same for car; the demand for Rolls Royce will increase and the price there might increase as well if they were being discounted because nobody was buying them. But they will not even look at the Toyota Prius and I don't see the car dealer there saying thinking "This billionaire will definitely buy all my Prisues, so I will increase their price". He will just shrug it off and keep selling his cars to the middle class whose purchasing power didn't move by an inch. The main difference he will see is that maybe the Rolls Royce dealer who could not afford a car himself because he was not selling anything will now be able to buy a Prius. So it's one more customer.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#218

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

I think it depends on where you live and what you do. In high school, I considered the Ivies priggish and didn't apply. My high school colleagues who went didn't disabuse me of my prejudice, and looking back after 20 years on Facebook, they aren't especially more accomplished than the rest of us. (Our most famous alum went to NYU and made it in Hollywood.) That said, in DC, Boston, and parts of NY, going to an Ivy is an unwritten requirement for a lot of jobs, so it generates a lot of ill will from those who didn't go. I think the solution is to just not live on the Northeast Corridor, and you can totally ignore it.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have a link to the "admissions content that came out in the affirmative action SCOTUS case"? That sounds very interesting. I found a report on the entire case but its near 300 pages long

This substack quotes some of the relevant bits: https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-... Copying here actual conversation (revealed in the lawsuit) between admissions officers at UNC: “I just opened a brown girl who’s an 810 [SAT].” “If its brown and above a 1300 [SAT] put them in for [the] merit/Excel [scholarship].” “Still yes, give these brown babies a shot at these merit $$.” “I am reading…

What. The. Fuck!? I’m actually speechless.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#220
Endowments are not meritocratic. While I can't quote data, I imagine that wealthy students provide much more growth for endowments, which in turn contribute not only to reputation, but also research, and ratio boosting hiring capacity. While Princeton and other Ivies, do have aggressive financial aid programs, https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/09/08/princeton-will-enh..., it is important for the elite schools to admit the wealthy, particularly students whose families will donate generously initially upon admission, and also throughout the student's life. Less wealthy students are less attractive fiscally, but reputation is influenced by a schools willingness to admit lower income students.
Post reply on HN