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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#211

Post by hmmokidk »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

If drugs were legal, two of my friends would not be dead from fentanyl.

That’s already enough of a case to legalize. Make it safe.

Then address the root of the issue.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#212

Post by fragmede »

taeric wrote: post #53
wonderwonder wrote: post #36

If you decriminalize hard drugs, all that happens is that addicts stay addicts, have a higher likely hood of becoming homeless and higher chance of dying. Hard drugs for the most part outside of controlled environments have almost no positive qualities. Drugs like cannabis have medical attributes and can provide benefits. People addicted to hard drugs require treatment, leaving them to their own devices is likely to…

Referencing Portugal feels weird. Most reports I see are still very favorable to the outcomes they are seeing, is that changing? Decriminalizing doesn't change people with a drug problem into not having a drug problem, true. It does, at least, free them from also having a legal problem. Idea being that they can seek and get treatment for their drug problem, now. Something they can't do when it is criminal. (Indeed, r…

Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638752

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#213

Post by anon84873628 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #175
ecf wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t have any evidence to back this feeling up so take it with a grain of salt: San Francisco has a drug problem simply because it’s one of few places in the country where it’s safe to have a drug problem. Other states pay for addicts/homeless to be shipped off to California and all of a sudden it becomes our taxpayer problem. If drugs were legalized country-wide then SF wouldn’t have the concentration it does and…

> If drugs were legalized country-wide No thank you. I don't want to catch what SF has. I'll vote against anyone who suggests we need to legalize in my area.

Then make sure you also vote for the people who want to build more housing.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#214

Post by code_runner »

hitpointdrew wrote: post #180

Decriminalization is mostly pointless step and won't work to fix the "drug" issue. It only solves one piece of the puzzle, jailing non-violent people. You still have black markets, you still have stigmatization, you still have unknown and mystery substances (users don't know what they are actually getting). To "solve" the drug issue we need full legalization and regulation of all drugs, and safe centers/locations whe…

There will always be black markets for the people who don't trust the government and certainly for people who don't want to go to some supervised location.

Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good etc, but some of it feels like just make the gov't complicit in people absolutely ruining their own lives. Its a tough nut to crack.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#215

Post by brightlancer »

kelnos wrote: post #16
j_walter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly they had the best of intentions, but Oregon's politicians are terrible at implementing anything properly. Open drug markets, increased property and retail thefts and a homeless population explosion are what happened...when They always claimed to follow other successful implementations like Portugal, but the law was no where near what they implemented as far as requiring treatment. Whats funny is the Governor…

That's fair, and certainly a problem, but I don't think the solution is "let's just go back to throwing everyone in jail". We know from long experience that isn't working.

How about, and I'm just spit-balling here, how about we enforce laws again theft and assault and "quality of life" offenses like smoking and shooting up drugs in public parks, on sidewalks, on transit?

If someone wants to get high in their home, I don't care. If someone wants to get high in a bar or such, I don't care. If someone wants to get high in one of those places and then walk out in public _without harming anyone else_, I don't care.

The thefts, the assaults, the zombies and crazies in public, that stuff I care about.

There is a middle-ground between "criminalize USE" and "stop enforcing laws, particularly when drug abusers and homeless are involved".

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#216

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

mtalantikite wrote: post #177
antisyzygy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing part of the equation there. Decriminalization isn't legalization. Legalization would mean controlling purity, and strength where the drug is licensed to be sold. Marijuana legalization hasn't lead to any major problems. People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. They go for what's convenient. Beyond that simply throwing people in prison doesn't mean that w…

> People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. The unlicensed weed bodegas popping up on every other block in NYC beg to differ. People might not text a delivery service anymore, but they're definitely not going to legal recreational dispensaries here in NYC.

That's got to be some sort of policy failure. Perhaps they need to make it easier to run a legal dispensary, crack down on the illegal ones, or both.

In California, the only people that still buy black market weed are kids that aren't old enough to go to a dispensary.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#217

Post by rvcdbn »

serf wrote: post #207
rvcdbn wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

>Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. that's pretty obviously wrong. Look at the demographic sample of meth users; it's not just down-and-out on-the-street folks.[0] it's not some "i'm going to try heroin on my deathbed" drug; affluent people try/use it ro…

I think these are not the same people we’re talking about here (the people on the streets in SF).

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#218

Post by squeaky-clean »

mtalantikite wrote: post #177
antisyzygy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing part of the equation there. Decriminalization isn't legalization. Legalization would mean controlling purity, and strength where the drug is licensed to be sold. Marijuana legalization hasn't lead to any major problems. People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. They go for what's convenient. Beyond that simply throwing people in prison doesn't mean that w…

> People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. The unlicensed weed bodegas popping up on every other block in NYC beg to differ. People might not text a delivery service anymore, but they're definitely not going to legal recreational dispensaries here in NYC.

Part of the reason for that is they've been so slow to allow them to open. There's only like 8 stores at the moment (4 of those are very recent), and they're all in Manhattan except for one that's way out in Jamaica at the end of the JZ line. Because there's so few of them, they always have an hour long line of people waiting to enter, mostly tourists.

The higher prices will still leave room for black market weed sales, but right now the biggest problem is buying weed legally is a 2 hour ordeal.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#219

Post by etc-hosts »

brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

> taxing the legal pot industry so highly that it was miles cheaper to buy stuff illegally no the corner

the legal pot industry's problem is it's impossible for it to turn a profit. they can't deduct operating expenses from their tax liability like other businesses can, because of federal law. items like rent, payroll.

they also can't use the same systems of credit management and bank accounts, because of federal law.

state taxes are a very minor part of the story.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#220

Post by sixQuarks »

brightlancer wrote: post #171
tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

San Francisco doesn't have a problem with marijuana, it has a problem with store robbery, muggings, crazies smoking/ shooting "hard" drugs on the metro and on sidewalks, etc. For too long, San Francisco and California more broadly have rejected The Stick in favor of The Carrot -- and they didn't improve the balance, they just through it out of balance in a different direction. If folks want to fry their brain on what…

Exactly, some cities don’t even allow smoking cigarettes in public parks, we can surely make it difficult to do hard drugs in public.
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