I've heard time and time again how this is "the end of the free web". Can someone succinctly explain how this is the case, for somebody not familiar with web browser architecture? What does WEI provide that wasn't previously possible?
Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
211–220 of 876 posts
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
So many sites don't work correctly in Firefox. Chrome is the new IE6.
I use Firefox as a daily driver. And I never encounter these sites. Perhaps we are not surfin on the same pages? Do you have a list of these pages?
Is your firefox rendering google maps the same sharp (vectorized) as in chromium? In my firefox it seems not so sharp and rasterized (tiles?), but might be related to some privacy plugins/settings I'm using.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Google needs to be broken up. To make it explicit: the only way this happens is by Americans voting for it. The FTC has been more active on anti-trust issues in the past two years than at any time in the past 30. That's a direct result of the 2020 election. Elections matter.
Citation? FTC against Google doesn't produce much results on Google (kind of an irony :)) Have seen FTC going against Amazon because the FTC chair had published prior work against Amazon's practices. Not defending Amazon but FB/Google are a much bigger threat than Amazon.
Citation for what, increased anti-trust activity from the FTC over the last two years? Sure, here's one article:
> Private equity deals and transactions in the healthcare and technology sectors continue to attract heightened antitrust scrutiny...
> The US agencies have also demonstrated an increased interest in challenging vertical transactions.
> In January 2022, for example, the FTC sued to block Lockheed Martin's US$4.4 billion proposed acquisition of Aerojet, which the parties subsequently abandoned.
> Increased enforcement, combined with the agencies' reluctance to approve remedies, has created an uncertain environment where commercial parties should be increasingly prepared to litigate mergers.
> The ramping up of antitrust enforcement in 2022...
https://www.whitecase.com/insight-our-thinking/us-ma-fy-2022...
Here's another:
> Since 2020, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) have filed multiple lawsuits against major tech companies...
> "The agencies have started laying the foundations for a more interventionist stance over the last two years, and this year is when we'll start to see some of those efforts come to fruition -- or be stopped in their tracks by the courts," Kass said.
https://www.techtarget.com/searchcio/news/252528606/FTC-push...
I'm sure you can find more.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#214I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…
Yeah, financial and social pressure is basically the only weapons we have against corporations when regulations don't exist. And honestly, financial pressure doesn't work at this scale or in this case.
Speaking of regulations, I think an angle that can help spread awareness to the general public is casting this as essentially being the equivalent of SOPA/PIPA but being pushed by Big Tech rather than Big Gov.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#215Mozilla should call for Google's removal from the W3C over this implementation of Web Environment Integrity. "But Chrome has 65% market share, what good is the W3C without them?” If Google can take unilateral action to fundamentally change the basic principles of the web, then the W3C is already useless. This will give Google a clear choice: if they want to maintain the idea that the W3C matters, they should withdraw…
There is no chance Mozilla does anything that actually matters here. They may do some virtue signaling and put out a statement about how they support the open web but nothing more.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#216One of the proposals for WEI is to make it probabilistically fail. Ie. on a given device, for 10% of websites, WEI pretends to be unsupported. That means websites can't deny service where WEI is unsupported. Yet it still allows statistical analysis across bulk user accounts. If WEI was implemented like this, I would support it as being good for the web ecosystem.
The antifraud company that worked with Google on the WEI proposal is already calling for the removal of holdouts from the spec[0], because:
- Attestation does not work as an antifraud signal unless it is mandatory - fraudsters will just pretend to be a browser doing random holdout otherwise.
- The banks that want attestation do not want you using niche browsers to login to their services.
[0] https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Companies don't usually make a habit of having their employees work on something they don't intend to pursue.
I wish that were true in corporate America! Think of all of the waste that would eliminate.
Yeah but then you also have to think about all the jobs that would be lost.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#218What you can do: - stop using Chrome - do not implement web DRM on your personal site - do not use providers like Cloudflare if they will support web DRM - maybe add a warning on your personal site for Chrome users Maybe something else?
One problem I find is that all that we do is in a bubble. I can convince a dozen like-minded people about the dangers and actions to take. However, the vast majority of the population is completely oblivious to all this and are negligently complicit in enabling bad behavior. This sort of things need to be discussed on the streets and in mainstream media (not tech media) for regular people to become aware. Remember that during the previous browser wars (IE vs Netscape), it was much more in the open and a lot more people knew.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#219And also, to switch back to Firefox
Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade and depends on Google to pay their bills.. I'm a FF user since the early 00's and Firefox will mostly not go away because Google has an interest in using it against monopoly accusations but the reality is bleak.. And the reality is these people ( Google in this case ) are so far removed from any moral compass about the Web ( at least what most people here think of "the We…
I'm not really seeing the dilemma here. Would you choose a browser from a mismanaged organisation, or a browser from a corp actively subverting the very basic idea of having a web client you can control, which has a chance of forever changing how we get to interact with businesses online? (In likely the worst way possible)
Seriously, how is this a question? (Unless you want to go with another independent option, then sure)
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
And what happens when website owners decide supporting Firefox is not worth it?
It would be much less likely if we could get the market share back to 2010 levels. Is that a realistic goal? I don't know, maybe not, but it seems like there's little will even in tech to try. There was a time when tech was the biggest driver of alternate browser adoption, and even managed to make serious inroads into the mainstream. It's a huge shame that this attitude seems long gone.
(As someone writing this in FF, being a Mosaic/Netscape/FF user for ~30 years)
No that ship has sailed.
It would mean focusing on developing the best browser and spending money on marketing so people download and install the best browser. Cut every other expense. Take FF from the politics of Mozilla and make it a real open source project.
If I look at Opera marketing, they seem to aim for young people with themes and video integration.
I do think FF has no vision and no clear strategy to get back market share, even it this is the only way to save the web. Perhaps market share isn't even their goal, I have no clue what they want.