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How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

kodingkitty.com

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Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#211

Post by gwern »

nickelpro wrote: post #196
gwern wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuts-and-bolts implementation of inlined-CSS to avoid flash-of-white is separate from the UX toggle question, which is why I listed them as separate criticisms. The former is just wrong of OP: no user wants the FOUC flash-of-white, end of story; similarly for some of the other solutions proposed here (block the entire page, really? talk about burning down the village to save it). The latter has more leeway for de…

> block the entire page, really? talk about burning down the village to save it I'm curious for what the other approach is. Users find it annoying to refresh the page and have their dark-mode setting change, or have their dark-mode setting change while navigating the site. So I have to block paint until I can query local storage in order to avoid flashing, what's the alternative? Below someone suggested using cookies…

You don't need to hide the entire page until fully rendered. You inline in the head just the bits of CSS/JS you need and set styles from there, so if you are in dark mode, it's set to dark before anything has rendered, without needing to block a huge amount of time. You can see how it works on my site https://gwern.net/ - set dark mode in the toggle (assuming it is not your system setting already), and refresh or force-refresh; note that there is no flash of white nor is the page hidden until rendering is fully finished.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#213

Post by spectre3d »

vereis wrote: post #68
Animats wrote: post #47

I'm still using Dreamweaver 8. I have to run it under Wine on Linux, but I have a permanent license, and it works fine. That does most of the drudge work. Sometimes I'll hand code some Javascript. I wish there was a modern version of Dreamweaver that didn't phone home, didn't use "cloud", and didn't require endless payments.

I've not tried this for any adobe products, but you could try running them in a locked down environment (container, vm, whatever) and don't allow network access.

Adobe Creative Cloud apps stop working after a while if they can’t phone home. Adobe Creative Suite apps do not.

“After Adobe Systems' acquisition of Macromedia in December 2005, Dreamweaver 8 was added to Adobe Creative Suite 2.3 and was later succeeded by Adobe Dreamweaver CS3.“ [1] (Replacing Adobe GoLive, good riddance)

So you could use up to Dreamweaver CS6 with just a serial number (usually requiring one-time internet activation), but anything newer requires regular internet access.

[1] https://macromedia.fandom.com/wiki/Macromedia_Dreamweaver_8

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#214

Post by 8organicbits »

swyx wrote: post #180
8organicbits wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not finding a "here's what you type and here's the final page" style example. Is there one? Id prefer not to install something and run through the steps just to see it.

try the tutorial? https://learn.svelte.dev/tutorial/introducing-sveltekit

There's a fairly high barrier for people to commit to installing a tool and building with it, especially if you haven't shown them what they'll get out.

Docs look good otherwise.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#215

Post by eviks »

gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

Excellent point, unfortunately the broken, but simplistic school of thought is also prevalent along with the broken and bloated one...

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#216

Post by SPBS »

gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

Honestly if the goal is a website as simple as possible, dark mode should not belong there at all. We've had simple readable websites in 90s long before the dark mode fad was a thing, only having light mode is fine.

> Third, this binary toggle is a bad way to implement dark mode because it ignores system/browser settings, so if a user has, say, enabled dark-mode on their smartphone OS, they still get served light-mode until they manually enable it; note that some systems change it based on local time/ambient light too, which is quite nice... if websites & apps respect it instead of overriding it.

There's so much complexity here that goes against the philosophy of a simple website if simplicity is the goal. They should just skip dark mode entirely. HN itself is perma light mode, it doesn't stop me from reading it at night.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#217

Post by grogenaut »

SPBS wrote: post #216
gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

Honestly if the goal is a website as simple as possible, dark mode should not belong there at all. We've had simple readable websites in 90s long before the dark mode fad was a thing, only having light mode is fine. > Third, this binary toggle is a bad way to implement dark mode because it ignores system/browser settings, so if a user has, say, enabled dark-mode on their smartphone OS, they still get served light-mod…

hn isn't pure white and it does kill me at night on powerful monitors... just like I can't do dark mode outside on a laptop. Sure we did readable websites in the 90s, on dialup or slow dsl, and they took forever to load on small monitors. We also didn't have USB or SSDs.

Dark mode and light mode is a nice tradeoff for varied lighting conditions.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#218

Post by SPBS »

grogenaut wrote: post #217
SPBS wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if the goal is a website as simple as possible, dark mode should not belong there at all. We've had simple readable websites in 90s long before the dark mode fad was a thing, only having light mode is fine. > Third, this binary toggle is a bad way to implement dark mode because it ignores system/browser settings, so if a user has, say, enabled dark-mode on their smartphone OS, they still get served light-mod…

hn isn't pure white and it does kill me at night on powerful monitors... just like I can't do dark mode outside on a laptop. Sure we did readable websites in the 90s, on dialup or slow dsl, and they took forever to load on small monitors. We also didn't have USB or SSDs. Dark mode and light mode is a nice tradeoff for varied lighting conditions.

Well I don't really mean white, but more of pick a default theme that works in both day and night and stick with it. So that it's all kept very simple. You could use a dark theme as the default as well, but light mode tends to be more accessible in more situations so I prefer light over dark. As an example, I think the Solarized Light palette is pretty usable in all situations.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#219

Post by simondotau »

grogenaut wrote: post #217
SPBS wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if the goal is a website as simple as possible, dark mode should not belong there at all. We've had simple readable websites in 90s long before the dark mode fad was a thing, only having light mode is fine. > Third, this binary toggle is a bad way to implement dark mode because it ignores system/browser settings, so if a user has, say, enabled dark-mode on their smartphone OS, they still get served light-mod…

hn isn't pure white and it does kill me at night on powerful monitors... just like I can't do dark mode outside on a laptop. Sure we did readable websites in the 90s, on dialup or slow dsl, and they took forever to load on small monitors. We also didn't have USB or SSDs. Dark mode and light mode is a nice tradeoff for varied lighting conditions.

If you have ergonomic issues with mostly white screens, it should be the job of your operating system or web browser to police this. It wouldn’t be difficult to implement a feature that sets a maximum total luminance for each page. Perhaps even automatically inverting the colours if it’s over a certain threshold.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#220

Post by Tomte »

simondotau wrote: post #219
grogenaut wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hn isn't pure white and it does kill me at night on powerful monitors... just like I can't do dark mode outside on a laptop. Sure we did readable websites in the 90s, on dialup or slow dsl, and they took forever to load on small monitors. We also didn't have USB or SSDs. Dark mode and light mode is a nice tradeoff for varied lighting conditions.

If you have ergonomic issues with mostly white screens, it should be the job of your operating system or web browser to police this. It wouldn’t be difficult to implement a feature that sets a maximum total luminance for each page. Perhaps even automatically inverting the colours if it’s over a certain threshold.

> If you have ergonomic issues with mostly white screens

...you need to turn your display brightness way down!

Hold a piece of white paper next to your display. Open a window with white background. Is the window/display brighter than the piece of paper? It's too bright.

It depends on the display of course, but just as an example: my brightness setting is at 2 out of 100. At the work computer it's 19 out of 100.

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