Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#211

Post by EdwardDiego » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 11:54 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #203

ramblenode wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychologically, I don't think the value of children has changed. Mourning the death of children is as ancient a literary trope as any. But from a microeconomic point of view, children were more valuable in pre-industrial times. Most people worked in agriculture or the trades and lived in multi-generation households, and children were necessary to help with chores and eventually take over the main occupation and care…

"Mourning the death of children is as ancient a literary trope as any." It might have been different between infants and slightly older children. The really young ones died all too often.

What's interesting is that a "good" name would often be reused when a child died. So a former leader of my country had three daughters called "Catherine" (IIRC), but two are buried beside each other in a small gold mining town's cemetery, having died young, the last Catherine living to adulthood.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#212

Post by EdwardDiego » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 11:57 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #177

transducers wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. Even King Kong demands the hottest young babe in the tribe, does he not? Did anyone ever “sacrifice” hoary old men or women to gods? (Only in passage of kingship did humans ritually kille the elder males.) So “religious” thinking would tend to demand something dear. This is inline with an inherent bug in human psyche — a false th…

> Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. I bet "the gods" were especially apt to take that attitude in the cultures where people ate the sacrifice afterwards.

“Strictly speaking, you see, it’s prayers that go up to the gods,” said the priest doubtfully.

“As I understand it,” said Moist, “the gift of sausages are offered to Offler by being fried, yes? And the spirit of the sausages ascends unto Offler by means of the smell? And then you eat the sausages?”

“Ah, no. Not exactly. Not at all,” said the young priest, who knew this one. “It might look like that to the uninitiated, but, as you say, the true sausagidity goes straight to Offler. He, of course, eats the spirit of the sausages. We eat the mere earthly shell, which believe me turns to dust and ashes in our mouths.”

“That would explain why the smell of sausages is always better than the actual sausage, then?” said Moist. “I’ve often noticed that.”

The priest was impressed. “Are you a theologian, sir?”

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#213

Post by black_13 » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 11:59 PM UTC

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#214

Post by whythre » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 12:04 AM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #210

slim wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that it seems incredible to us that people could sacrifice their children is a testament to the advance of civilisation. children were not always so precious. if memory does not fail me, in the 20th century, there were still laws that stated that children were property of their parents who disposed of their lifes as they wish. that means you could kill your child without consequences. child labor : l…

They lived at the Malthusian population limit of their ecosystem anyway. Sacrificing children was just another way to get rid of excess population and would absolutely improve the lives of whoever was left. Any children not sacrificed would have to die by disease, war, or starvation at some point anyway, because again, the population cannot grow above the Malthusian limit. This core concept - that preindustrial peopl…

Sounds like an overly simplistic answer. You got a source?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#215

Post by Eisenstein » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 12:26 AM UTC

causi wrote: post #102

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greeks and Romans had almost bo qualms about infanticide though. It was no less acceptable than abortion is nowadays. They only had issues with ritualizing the process or killing older children..

Is there an objective reason to find infanticide worse than abortion, besides cultural mores? It's worse for the performer, certainly, because you have to look at it before you kill it, but a newborn doesn't have any more personality than a fetus.

If an infant is able to survive outside of another person without being hooked up to modern medical equipment I would say there is a very big difference between it an something which cannot.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#216

Post by thunkle » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 1:42 AM UTC

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #209

One of the great gifts of the Abrahamic religions was the end of human sacrifice. Here's a fantastic graph of sacrifice over time: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjEVivqXwAAr3kj

404

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#217

Post by Apofis » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 2:52 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

You would be surprised: a child that was difficult to provide for and had no future of providing for you in your old age wasn't that hard to discard even 100 years ago.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#218

Post by svnt » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 3:12 AM UTC

whythre wrote: post #214

jlawson wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They lived at the Malthusian population limit of their ecosystem anyway. Sacrificing children was just another way to get rid of excess population and would absolutely improve the lives of whoever was left. Any children not sacrificed would have to die by disease, war, or starvation at some point anyway, because again, the population cannot grow above the Malthusian limit. This core concept - that preindustrial peopl…

Sounds like an overly simplistic answer. You got a source?

It is hard to argue against it as a first principle in population growth: reproduction is pretty simple math.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#219

Post by arrow7000 » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 3:27 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #212

justin66 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. I bet "the gods" were especially apt to take that attitude in the cultures where people ate the sacrifice afterwards.

“Strictly speaking, you see, it’s prayers that go up to the gods,” said the priest doubtfully. “As I understand it,” said Moist, “the gift of sausages are offered to Offler by being fried, yes? And the spirit of the sausages ascends unto Offler by means of the smell? And then you eat the sausages?” “Ah, no. Not exactly. Not at all,” said the young priest, who knew this one. “It might look like that to the uninitiated…

Brilliant. Where is this from?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#220

Post by readthenotes1 » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 3:36 AM UTC

Apofis wrote: post #217

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

You would be surprised: a child that was difficult to provide for and had no future of providing for you in your old age wasn't that hard to discard even 100 years ago.

Some people believe abortion is basically the same thing