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Julia 1.9

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Re: Julia 1.9

#211
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grab any project you have with more than 2k lines, multiple dependencies and run package compiler on it. Wait an hour, hopefully it didn't barf irreconcilably and check the file size.

My packages at work are about 1.5k lines. Precompilation is about 10-15 seconds. After precomp, about 1-2 seconds to load with "import" or "using". The longest I've seen on precomp have been DifferentialEquations.jl. I've not used it in a while, though I have plans to for personal (non-work related) projects. My packages have 5-10 dependencies in them, I tend to keep my packages/tooling streamlined, and I performance…

Diffeqs precompilation is particularly heinous if you aren't on a serious machine. but I think I misspoke. I thought we were discussing package compilation. Unfortunately though, even if we are discussing precompilation theres a ton of cost there even if you go beyond packages. Time to first anything is often brutal. See the discussions on time to first gradient... This is often up to the developer to work out, but it's a challenge that's pretty unique to Julia itself.

When I see people describing viable alternatives to python and or C I personally look at C++ and Rust. Julia's GC is good for most academic embarrassingly parallel number crunching things, but is rough for large scale applications. I've only been able to use Julia in a vacuum for research. For product development, every effort I've seen has eroded insanely fast due to things other languages control much more easily. Those languages can often also do the math fast enough too, especially when the cost of failed experiments is accounted for. All those wait three hours to find out your first gradient descent iteration had a type error that propagated to 1000 compute nodes($) moments are gone. It just can't happen in other paradigms, and in some paradigms it's far less likely to happen and when it does the cost is minor because the cost of compilation was already amortized.

Re: Julia 1.9

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the backlog of issues in their GitHub for backports. You'll see detailed lists of reported and fixed breakages. The lists aren't small... Now go on to imagine the ones people don't report and instead patch and fix them locally. We aren't even talking about Julia code fixes, often these involve the C that creates it and are a nightmare to diagnose. I can't reply to your post unfortunately the thread is too lon…

This is the list of bugs fixed in the upcoming Matlab release: https://www.mathworks.com/support/faq/pr_bugs.html Just look at the first one: "In certain cases, pointAt method of satellite scenario Satellite class interprets Euler angle inputs in radians rather than degrees" Your expectations are completely unrealistic.

Your entitled to your own beliefs, but Julia is more of a research project that's crowd sourcing phds to make products for them then it is a programming language. In other programming languages I've used past a 1.0 release (hint that's many) I've never seen the type of breaking bugs that occur. If Julia is this end all be all scientific computing language then I expect the CSV package not to be incompatible with Base after a minor version bump. Having to manually compile a patched fix to read csvs is not normal... Sorry, but that's never happened to me in R, python, Go, Rust, C++, Java, Scala, JavaScript, etc. If that's an unrealistic expectation then maybe Julia is just holding an incredibly low bar compared to it's competitors.

Re: Julia 1.9

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the backlog of issues in their GitHub for backports. You'll see detailed lists of reported and fixed breakages. The lists aren't small... Now go on to imagine the ones people don't report and instead patch and fix them locally. We aren't even talking about Julia code fixes, often these involve the C that creates it and are a nightmare to diagnose. I can't reply to your post unfortunately the thread is too lon…

Other languages don't have that? CPython has almost 7k issues open atm. GHC has 5k. Again, FUD.

It's not about having issues. It's the type of issues and how they affect end users. There's no FUD associated with that. Just facts. Julia has been around for a decade, the FUD campaign stuff shouldn't even be a concern for the project at this point. Other languages from the same era are either gone, or are dealing with very different social deterrers to adoption.

I'm not typing these things out for FUD to slow Julia developers role or something. Actually I hope they listen and actually work to fix things that matter. I invested a lot of time and effort into the language. Currently I'm looking at it as a complete waste with mostly negative side effects to my career and where I could have invested my time. Trying to do one of two things, encourage change, get people on the fence about trying it to wait until it's actually ready.

Re: Julia 1.9

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it fair to say that it is your career to rewrite code in Julia to write academic papers about julia?

Most of my time isn't academic or writing code. Most of it is focused on enhancing algorithms to achieve what's required for new methods to work deployed in production environments such as the Pumas clinical pharmacology work, and now working on what's required to get scientific machine learning point-and-click GUI ready. I always leave a little bit of time in mornings and weekends though for some coding, and a littl…

Think you've dodged the point entirely by fixating on a word rather then the sentiment. Isn't it in your professional interest to endlessly promote Julia at all costs. To find tools in other languages and make sure they are available in Julia, etc?

That's basically my point. Readers should be aware of who is making suggestions and why they might be making them. You have a clear status and financial drivers to say "only use Julia, it's ready for anything, it's fine" while not saying any of the flaws other then "it's fixed if you compile the branch of the grad student I asked to fix it's PR".

Also the type of work you do is incredibly rare. Most people considering trying to use Julia for their day job don't have the resources you have nor the needs or desires you have. In most cases getting one of the most foremost scientific computing in Julia experts take on what tools they should use really doesn't map well to practical users.

Re: Julia 1.9

#215
post #178
post #94

we had a big julia push this month after 2 years of just messing around. It's better than APL to read ( so is Sanskrit) but we hit a SCREECHING halt when we realized that it wasn't going to happen that we could our streaming data with Pluto notebooks on the web. Pluto Notebooks are wonderful and can handle streaming data just not on a hosted web page with multiple people using it. We tried to use Stipple.jl ( part of…

Can I ask what you would "easily" do after you "send the data to Python"? What Python framework would you use to easily build interactive real-time streaming data apps? I'm asking because I work on Shiny, a reactive web framework for Python (and R) that aims to solve this problem well, and I'm having trouble figuring out how Python people have been doing this sort of thing. It's straightforward with a lower-level web…

Sorry, missed this as we're in meetings this week. So to answer your question.

We use zeroMQ to move data around so to get it into a python script is very easy for us. We "were" going to create a dash/plotly app to consume the data stream and create a trading augmentation tool as we find dash a pleasure to work with. We also find that it's very well supported using videos so not even we ( non web developers) can mess it up. We adhere to the Tufte approach to graphical representation of complex data sets and python allows us to take a minimalist approach to doing that.

We are also discussing the implementation of async components in a python specific hosting company that seems to address the same market as GENIE. That would give us the GUI approach should we chose to use it. We have experienced some problems with streaming data into Stipple but I would expect that they will provide a MWE that we can modify. I have high hopes for the GENIE team, they seem like excellent people.

All that said we are progressing out Carbon discussions with various people. In Chicago we are very lucky that we have a deep pool of people skilled at kernel latency avoidance, this helps us consider what we can expect from Carbon and if there are any advantages to what we want to achieve.

I hope this answers your question.

Re: Julia 1.9

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python's slice/range semantics never occured to be really weird to me because half-open intervals [x,y) are widely used in measure theory textbooks.

How hard can you continue to advocate for this way of asking like: "please count from 0 to 7 excluded"? Ask this to anybody in the street and they'll be confuse why you mentionned 7 if it's excluded! That's natural numbers, not reals! > measure theory First of all, even for a specialist, that extremely hard to be delusioned into thinking we're doing measure theory, when we're manipulating indices of arrays/matrices/t…

> How hard can you continue to advocate ... That's natural numbers, not reals!

I didn't mean to advocate at all... Just explained that I never peronally felt the weirdness of it.

The point about integers is taken but Python style also gives you len(range(n, n+k)) == k and len(range(n, k)) == n - k which is very convenient at times.

> To the contrary: the support of base elements of major functional spaces used in measure theory textbooks are always compact.

You can take either type of intervals to define Borel sigma algebras.

Half-open intervals, however, additionaly form a semiring while finite unions of half-open intervals additionaly form a ring - the starting point of Caratheodory's extension theorem [1] which is kind of essential at least in some expositions.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carath%C3%A9odory%27s_extens...

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