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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#211

Post by kayodelycaon »

samhuk wrote: post #192

> If we have an objective, context-free, helpful truth then why can't it be offered in a way that respects and honors other people? In my view, this is essentially the key sentence that the entire blog post builds up to and revolves around. Honestly, I am fearful of this ideology. What I see, is an author who spends a very long time and many words to explain how, sometimes, truths are "too offensive" or "inconvenient…

Truth really isn't the central issue here. The issue is communication. You want the other person to hear and understand what you are trying to convey.

You may need to present your information in a way that doesn't make the person defensive. Or you need to yell because someone is being an idiot and they need to stop immediately.

You want your words to have a specific result. Tailor your words to your audience in a way that won't harm trust or future conversations. Speak to people in a way where they will best listen.

- Some people want to be confrontational and make you stand your ground. Engage with that.

- Others can be touchy and defensive. They'll need a softer approach.

Now, you can't win with everyone. There comes a point when it's the other person's responsibility to listen in good faith. If they aren't going to do that, consider the people around you. How do you want them to see this conversation?

Or just walk away. There are only so many hills worth dying on. :)

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#212

Post by lazide »

falcolas wrote: post #205
lazide wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that it is often very important in engineering to get to the point and state what you believe as directly as possible , so that others (and yourself) can compare it to the facts quickly and easily. And listen, and figure out where they might be wrong afterwards. And we can and should expect everyone in Engineering to do the same for what they believe too. Because otherwise we all waste time we can’t affo…

Engineers too are human. They have egos and beliefs and care more about the things they build than they should. Their feelings get hurt when people are rude, short, or belittling - or when they perceive that someone's being rude, short, or belittling. The perfectly rational engineer (read: human being) doesn't exist outside of a select few neurodivergant folks. Acting as if every engineer is perfectly rational is now…

It is entirely possible to be direct without being an asshole.

Being indirect, Socratic questioning, etc. has its place too. But it can easily just result in someone being a passive aggressive asshole instead of a direct one, or, as others noted in the thread, being confusing and a drag on everyone because they won’t actually say what they think.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#213

Post by eyelidlessness »

falcolas wrote: post #205
lazide wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that it is often very important in engineering to get to the point and state what you believe as directly as possible , so that others (and yourself) can compare it to the facts quickly and easily. And listen, and figure out where they might be wrong afterwards. And we can and should expect everyone in Engineering to do the same for what they believe too. Because otherwise we all waste time we can’t affo…

Engineers too are human. They have egos and beliefs and care more about the things they build than they should. Their feelings get hurt when people are rude, short, or belittling - or when they perceive that someone's being rude, short, or belittling. The perfectly rational engineer (read: human being) doesn't exist outside of a select few neurodivergant folks. Acting as if every engineer is perfectly rational is now…

[flagged]

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#215

Post by newZWhoDis »

lucaspfeifer wrote: post #137
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

Calling someone wrong, in the extreme sense, could be taken as an insult. Whereas when calling an idea wrong, the scope of negativity is limited to that idea. Even better is to focus only on the right, and minimize the time spent on the wrong.

Sure, but uh… sometimes some people deserve it.

I’m uncomfortable with this notion that we should always tiptoe around people no matter what

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#216

Post by seattle_spring »

PpEY4fu85hkQpn wrote: post #23
sublinear wrote: post #8

> It reminds me of the bumper stickers on trucks saying that vehicles must stay back at least 200 feet because the driver is not responsible for damage done to other vehicles by falling rocks. It's nonsense of course. No, it isn't nonsense . Neither are the signs at a mechanic's shop telling you they're not responsible for lost or damaged items. What all these signs have in common is that they signify dangerous work.…

Sure, trucks can be dangerous, but that's not at all what the stickers or the author is talking about.

You're going to be a whole lot closer than 240 feet if you pass them in the adjacent lane. Plenty of ways a rock could flight to the side.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#217

Post by kayodelycaon »

yarg wrote: post #22
geraneum wrote: post #4

This reminds me of: “People who are brutally honest get more satisfaction out of the brutality than out of the honesty.” Richard J. Needham

I think that there's the need to a counterpoint to the world that says "you're beautiful, you're smart, you're perfect just the way you are.". A lot of the time the modern world tells us that feelings are more important than objective reality. It's bullshit.

Truth (and honesty) can be told with kindness. That's the counterpoint.

Screw this everyone should feel good about everything crap but please be kind. Say the things that need to be said, but remember not everything needs to be said. Being blunt is better than evading.

But kindness is not weakness. If the person you're talking to works well with brutal honesty, have at. You'll probably have a lot of fun. :)

The point is caring about the other person rather than treating them like a punching bag.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#220

Post by falcolas »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #213
falcolas wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers too are human. They have egos and beliefs and care more about the things they build than they should. Their feelings get hurt when people are rude, short, or belittling - or when they perceive that someone's being rude, short, or belittling. The perfectly rational engineer (read: human being) doesn't exist outside of a select few neurodivergant folks. Acting as if every engineer is perfectly rational is now…

[flagged]

Saying that someone is perfectly rational is not saying they have no emotions. Nor is it an insinuation that someone is somehow less human for prioritizing rationality in decision making.

And I say this as an outspoken neurodivergent myself.

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