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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#211

Post by mcguire »

jeltz wrote: post #199
cm2187 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you are equating this to in software, but if it is security vulnerabilities, incompetence has probably more to do with it than time pressure. It takes about the time to write a parametrised query than to concatenate your strings.

I disagree. Yes, a lot of them are caused by incompetence to some extent but we should use processes where the harm of incompetence is limited and where we take quality and security seriously. Blaming it on individual incompetent developers is unhelpful when the industry allows this and encourages it since it increases the short term output of new features.

Everyone started out as an incompetent developer.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#212

Post by rsync »

thimkerbell wrote: post #188

"There’s no reinforced steel here,” she says, “so the concrete lost its strength and the columns collapsed, along with the floors, as soon as the ground started to shake.”" "'The problem lies in implementation and oversight'" of building codes that are strict on paper.

That's unbelievable.

I was expecting to learn that marginal corners had been cut ... best practices had not been followed, etc.

But concrete high rise superstructure without steel reinforcement (like rebar) is beyond the pale.

How could you even construct that and escape notice (and alarm!) from passersby ? How could you silence (every single worker at the site) ?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#213

Post by riedel »

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

This is really difficult business and I recently ended in a dispute with my civil engineer wife because I wanted to move a shelf towards the center of the room. She is I guess right reminding me that trial and error is not a good strategy in her business. I always think, that a 120 year old building somehow should not collapse due to my books.

However, when it comes to earthquake standars over time it really gets even stranger. I live in a region in Germany that recently got an 'upgrade' on earth quake forces after recent surveys. However, regulators still do not enforce new standards. So my wife has to recommend all her customers to adopt new standards, but tells them in the same sentence that it is not yet required. With rising construction costs nobody choses to. So we are all waiting cynically for the predicted major earthquake so that we are on the same standard again. Some by design, some empirically proven.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#214

Post by mcguire »

toast0 wrote: post #126
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. > Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Some of the rules are, but some of the rules aren't. When code calls for a maximum distance between…

The last house we lived in---a moderately expensive and well constructed house, compared to many of the others we looked at---didn't have electrical boxes behind wall- and ceiling-mounted light fixtures. The romex was just directly connected to the fixture and the fixtures were secured with drywall anchors.

Disastrous?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#215

Post by arp242 »

_greim_ wrote: post #198
toast0 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. > Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Some of the rules are, but some of the rules aren't. When code calls for a maximum distance between…

> When code calls for a maximum distance between electrical outlets, that's partially for convenience, and partly because of unsafe practices with extension cords, so there's some blood there, but if you miss the mark by a foot, it's not disasterous. I mean, it could be disastrous, couldn't it? That foot could be the threshold of someone saying "Aw screw it, I'll just use my parent's frayed extension cord from the 70…

Designing to prevent common mistakes – even if they're stupid mistakes – is a good idea, but you can't idiot-proof absolutely everything. At some point personal responsibility starts. I think this is somewhere before "I'll use a frayed extension cord from the 70s" – even a child can understand that's not a good idea.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#216

Post by inglor_cz »

notch898a wrote: post #123
nisegami wrote: post #80

How many benefitted from cheaper and more accessible housing as a result of the lax enforcement of building codes? I remain unconvinced that obscenely strict building codes are a net-positive.

That doesn't matter because earthquake deaths are big and obvious and a bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets doesn't attract news. People see "house fall, housing bad" and then demand safer construction so the death will be hidden elsewhere.

"bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets"

Is that common in Turkey? It rather sounds like an American extrapolating from the situation on the Tenderloin.

In the Muslim world, extended families tend to stick together more than in the West and provide their members with some safety net. Your crazy uncle will have just a cot in a small side room, but won't be left alone in the street to fend for himself.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#217

Post by nickpp »

tablespoon wrote: post #94

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Turkiye had building codes. But a corrupt government didn't enforce them.

Non-libertarians: this is exactly why we never trust governments with our lives. Free markets would eventually find a cost-effective solution but governments will only manage to instill a false sense of security with promises and lies while happily taking our money with both hands.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#218

Post by mcguire »

flavius29663 wrote: post #181
adrianparsons wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? There's a small movement to eradicate the requirement for midrise buildings to have 2 stairways. Advocates point to European regulations and claim that a single stairway is just as safe as 2. Double stairways, they say, makes construction more expensive and results in awkward, undesirable apartment layouts. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-flo…

This to me sounds like another case of out of context "Europeans do this, so it must be better". From personal experience, the UK takes fire safety much more serious than the US: fire alarm tested every week, fire drills are made often and *for real*, fire doors everywhere, every kitchen has a fire blanket (not just an extinguisher), every building has 2 doors, every appliance has a plug with a fuse in the plug itsel…

This the same UK that had a scandal a while back about a high-rise fire caused by idiotic external cladding materials? :-)

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#219

Post by notch898a »

inglor_cz wrote: post #216
notch898a wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't matter because earthquake deaths are big and obvious and a bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets doesn't attract news. People see "house fall, housing bad" and then demand safer construction so the death will be hidden elsewhere.

"bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets" Is that common in Turkey? It rather sounds like an American extrapolating from the situation on the Tenderloin. In the Muslim world, extended families tend to stick together more than in the West and provide their members with some safety net. Your crazy uncle will have just a cot in a small side room, but won't be left alone in the street to fend for himself.

I am extrapolating from living in Rojava, which is as close as I can get to Turkey without getting executed.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#220

Post by inglor_cz »

nisegami wrote: post #80

How many benefitted from cheaper and more accessible housing as a result of the lax enforcement of building codes? I remain unconvinced that obscenely strict building codes are a net-positive.

"obscenely strict building codes are a net-positive"

Context matters and Turkey is a notorious earthquake area. What might be tolerable in Lithuania is criminal on an active fault line.

You haven't even demonstrated that the apartments were actually cheaper for the customers. They were cheaper to build, but their price was probably determined by the market and the notorious informational asymmetry, and the money saved by cheating might have been split between the developers and the crooked officials.

It is entirely possible that people paid through their nose for housing that would later kill them. If you look at the Chinese market, the "tou-fou dreg" buildings still command a premium price.

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