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How to sell tickets fairly

barnabas.me

211–220 of 363 posts

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#211

Starting at $2000 for a concert where demand outstrips supply to the point where people will pay $4000 to a ticket scalper just means the minimum ticket price will be $2000. All the tickets will still sell out immediately. The audience will be entirely made up of wealthy people, or people who are willing to break the bank to see Taylor sing. The only "fair" way to sell a good that's in high demand and you want everyo…

This is actually how they do it in Japan. They love the lottery system and as a customer it's honestly a huge pain in the ass but once you see the kind of scalping and sleazy tactics that go on overseas you kinda start to appreciate it.

There's a few ways it is implemented and not all artists/venues do all of these but things I've seen are:

- Priority purchase for "fan club" registered members. Most artists have a LINE group fan club with a yearly subscription (like $50 or whatever), then if you are in this group, you get priority access to that artist's events. This means if you're a "real" fan you get to access tickets before everyone else.

- Lottery system based on price "bands". I've seen a few artists let the fans decide how much they want to pay based on tiers. Months before the event, the artist will send out a survey with price ranges you can choose (only one) like: $10, $15, $30, $50, $90 and then seats will be allocated based on a priority level as a self-chosen value. So if there's 5 people who chose $90, 10 people who chose $50, 30 people who chose $30, 200 people who chose $15, and 1000 people who chose $10, if the venue can only host 250 people then 5 + 10 + 30 + 200 (= 245) people will get in at their price, and only 5 remaining people will get in at $10 price point.

- Totally random lottery based on "waves". X people will apply to wave 1, and out of those X people let's say only 70% will get chosen. Then the artist/venue decides on a more approachable size and might host a second wave, another X people will apply to that second wave (including the previously excluded 30%) and another 70% will get chosen, then repeat until the venue is full or the artist decides they cannot host more events. Those who don't get chosen have to suck it up and try again another time.

It's far from perfect, and as I said it can be extremely frustrating, but it has its good sides too.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#213
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point on artists is that maximising value extraction isn't their priority. I worked in the industry for almost a decade, had 2 record labels, and signed a number of bands that became famous (for some definition of that) as well as worked with bands that were famous (for any definition of that)... so I have some experience here even though that experience has aged a bit. Artists are balancing revenue now, with futu…

Ticketmaster is in the news because they had trouble with sales for the upcoming Taylor Swift tour. I have trouble believing that they are worried about changing venues (I expect they chose the largest available in every case) or selling the shows out. And the number of shows is a decision that is taking into account a lot of factors that aren't reaching as many fans as possible. That's fine, no artist owes their fan…

OK, so let's take that one specific example.

Taylor Swift is huge, a megastar. She has a fanbase in the millions. She doesn't want to tour endlessly as it is exhausting and impedes upon a family life and seeing friends. So... a big tour, but big venues.

Her fanbase is all ages, but probably veers towards teens and those in their twenties as she went mega-big after 1989 was released (in 2014).

The vast majority of the fanbase are younger, and therefore poorer (wealth is accumulated over time, and the cost of living crisis hits the young disproportionately).

Because the fanbase is so large, the minority with wealth could afford to purchase every ticket under a dutch auction and the vast majority of her fanbase wouldn't stand a chance.

Taylor Swift is famed for doing things for her fans, getting them in to gigs, visiting in hospital, sending messages to console... and basically having empathy and caring for them.

Can you even imagine the headlines on every front page as teens and twenty-year olds are priced out by older people who are wealthier... and the immense damage that would cause to a brand curated and sculpted over the past decade or more.

In this specific instance... Taylor Swift would consider the proposal in the article to be the worst possible thing she could do. It would still be flat-out rejected.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#214

Starting at $2000 for a concert where demand outstrips supply to the point where people will pay $4000 to a ticket scalper just means the minimum ticket price will be $2000. All the tickets will still sell out immediately. The audience will be entirely made up of wealthy people, or people who are willing to break the bank to see Taylor sing. The only "fair" way to sell a good that's in high demand and you want everyo…

I think the point is, you start at the maximum price you think any significant number of people will pay. If that's $4000, it's $4000.

If you want your marketing signaling to be "this artist is for rich people, normal people have no chance to see them anyways", sure. Many probably don't want to do that - indeed the strength of the lottery system is that it does signal the opposite.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [T]he idea that "I have more money and deserve more to have a ticket over someone that doesn't have as much money" is antithetical to the thinking of every artist I've ever worked with. The problem is, with a limited supply of tickets you’re going to draw the line somehow whether you want it or not. Price sets the barrier explicitly. Attempts to avoid using that (e.g. in various social welfare programs all over the…

The model that works is to build relationships with fans and afford them privileged access, and sell everything else at market clearing prices. Ticketmaster tried too offer that through a "verified fan" route, but it failed under the weight of its own monopolistic ineptitude. Whoever cracks the fan management+ticketing service and offers it to bands will have an incredibly strong moat.

How exactly do fans prove their loyalty?

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#217
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is, you start at the maximum price you think any significant number of people will pay. If that's $4000, it's $4000.

If you want your marketing signaling to be "this artist is for rich people, normal people have no chance to see them anyways", sure. Many probably don't want to do that - indeed the strength of the lottery system is that it does signal the opposite.

No, they would also advertise the descending nature of it, so if they book a big enough venue, there won't be that much demand at $4000 to sell it out. So the price will descend down to more affordable levels.

Of course if the biggest venue isn't big enough to do that, then that's more of a problem of the local facilities, or the artist's decision to play in an area with inadequately sized venues.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#218
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s essentially a real estate monopoly at heart?

more like monopoly on the venue service. (a place where you have the permit to organize large group events, so proper exits, toilets, accessibility (if required); bag/clothes storage, waiting area, permit to sell alcohol, staff for all this, sufficient electricity connection, HVAC, ability to assemble a stage and the frame for lights and the soundsystem) for example rave organizers in LA can do it in a lot of potenti…

So why don't some enterprising well known artists/VCs/record labels/ pool together some money to build a new large venue, and control the ticketing themselves?

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#219
post #154

The proposed idea is a technical one that doesn't work for the promoters or artists or venues. The promoters want to know very early whether the venue is the right one for the number attending and whether to upsize, add dates, or even to go the other way to a smaller venue. The time to book a venue is very long... So they need as complete data as they can about sales as early as possible (they would love if 80% of th…

There is the old trope that McDonalds is primarily a real estate business. In the same line of thinking, you could say Ticketmaster is a "scape goat" business so the artists and venues can get max profit while still coming of as innocent angels. It is now all Ticketmaster's fault. Venues and artists are innocent. This would explain why you can't fix it: where would the scapegoating go? When you have larger demand tha…

I guess I see the entertainment industry in two tiers. There are the mega-stars like Taylor Swift, etc. that occupy one tier, and then the majority off smaller artists, up and coming artists that represent the lower, if you like, strata.

Perhaps you are describing, and perhaps the author are tackling the upper strata. For myself, I swore off big venues decades ago. If I am unable to set my beer behind the monitor speaker, I'm not going.

I wonder if the lower strata could use a kind of "artists coop" to manage ticket sales. All smaller venues (bars and the like) could participate, all smaller artists could as well.

I think more artists would handle selling their own tickets if it was easy to do. In that way the artists are served (of course) and presumably they will do what is best for their fanbase.

Connecting artists and venue owners with a web portal, allowing ticket sales to fans via the same site shouldn't be heavy lifting for a lot of the readers on HN.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#220
post #154

The proposed idea is a technical one that doesn't work for the promoters or artists or venues. The promoters want to know very early whether the venue is the right one for the number attending and whether to upsize, add dates, or even to go the other way to a smaller venue. The time to book a venue is very long... So they need as complete data as they can about sales as early as possible (they would love if 80% of th…

There is the old trope that McDonalds is primarily a real estate business. In the same line of thinking, you could say Ticketmaster is a "scape goat" business so the artists and venues can get max profit while still coming of as innocent angels. It is now all Ticketmaster's fault. Venues and artists are innocent. This would explain why you can't fix it: where would the scapegoating go? When you have larger demand tha…

Ticketmaster if I recall correctly has even stated this in its shareholder meetings. Artists can even get a share of Ticketmaster’s fees.
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