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How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

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Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#211

Post by bheadmaster »

pmoriarty wrote: post #209
bheadmaster wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there's no evidence that the one is superior to the other. I believe the fact that people cannot drive a car properly while hallucinating seems to be a bit of evidence of "superiority" of the sober mind over the intoxicated, at least in the real world.

Why did you pick car driving as the measure of reality? Why not pick love making, or singing, appreciating or making music, laughing, communing with spirits or gods, feeling empathy for others, or making art?

Because when you hit someone with a car, they die. When you have bad sex, it's just bad sex. In other words, driving a car requires much better connection with reality in order to make sure you're doing it right, and doing it wrong has much harder consequences than the things you've listed.

Sure, all those things are pleasant to people, but that doesn't have anything to do with them being "real". When you watch a good movie, the scenes feel real, but they are very much not.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#212

Post by comfypotato »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #202
comfypotato wrote: post #138

This article doesn’t give the relevant attention to risks of more serious, long term, psychiatric conditions. Responsible use is key. DMT and other common psychedelics have been linked to emerging schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. [1]. The link is particularly strong when “large-dose trips” are taken in quick succession or generally without weeks/months in between. I personally broke my brain with irresponsible use of psy…

A close family member of mine became a schizophrenic after doing hallucinogens. Last time I looked at some research it is suggested that hallucinogens can “activate” dormant mental illnesses.

That’s exactly the risk I’m pointing too.

Ignoramuses in the medical community will occasionally go as far as to say “take these warnings with a grain of salt” trying to deem them coincidences. Any seasoned hippy (and many young people who frequent festivals and/or are experienced with the scene) will tell you to be careful. As the source I linked indicates, there is hard evidence behind the seasoned-hippy-wisdom.

Most research these days is focused on the benefits of these drugs (and rightfully so; it’s promising research). That being said, there are risks associated with their use that are very different (and potentially more serious) than something like cannabis or alcohol.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#213

Post by andrei_says_ »

pmoriarty wrote: post #168
andrei_says_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Set, setting, and the presence of a maestro. Sounds like fiction but there are lineages and training for working with the plants, and people capable of directing other people’s processes and experiences - in a repeatable manner, with awareness of others’ concrete experiences. Taking the tea in the absence of this is a completely different experience. Having a capable maestro in the room is like having a doctor in the…

In the shamanic marketplace, how do you determine who's a real doctor and who's a quack? In western medicine at least there are requirements of strictly documented education and training at accredited schools, ethical standards and review boards, and professional, monetary and criminal penalties for misconduct. Even then scammers, incompetent, and malevolent doctors slip through the cracks. There's virtually no accre…

This is the big question. My unironic answer is that there are no shortcuts.

Start your relationship with this practice 15-20 years ago when the ratio was much better, spend time in the Amazon close to the roots of the lineage and build distinctions and understanding.

Second best thing is to know someone who did, and has remained connected through ongoing practice and dietas.

I wish there was a fast and reliable way but there’s so much money to be made and so little understanding that yes, this is a serious issue.

One more thing regarding the article - there’s no “one” ayahuasca tea. Every brew varies - sometimes even when made by the same people in the same place. And, the clear liquid in the article photo is definitely not aya :)

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#214

Post by moe091 »

bheadmaster wrote: post #181
pyinstallwoes wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a consistency in people’s experiences with these rituals and places they go to.

Sure, there's some consistency. But compared to the consistency of experience of the real world, it is lacking and full of holes. Not enough to be called "real", in my opinion.

If you define real as "things that can be seen and confirmed by others" then I agree, I think the only useful argument is whether these hallucinations are any more or less "real" than what we perceive during sober states. When we're sober sobriety feels more real, when we're tripping the trip feels more real, there's no reason to believe either one over the other except that it's easy to justify the realness of sobriety by getting confirmation from other people, but with our utter lack of ability to comprehend the true nature of reality there's no reason to believe that this shared sober reality is completely "real" or that it's the only "real" reality. I think any skeptic should be skeptical in both directions

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#215

Post by moe091 »

goldenchrome wrote: post #77
vga805 wrote: post #70

Ayahuasca ceremonies are among the most profound, cherished experiences of my life. I prepare for months before partaking in them to make sure my emotional, physical, and spiritual health is in a good place. And I can't imagine taking this drug without being under the care of experienced guides. I also wouldn't recommend it for anyone except those who really desire to push the limits of their mind. Some trips have fe…

I’ve had similar experiences on large doses of mush. I think it’s in your head, but it’s something that your subconscious self really wanted your conscious self to acknowledge. For you, perhaps you are in the habit of “rationalizing” away profound experiences which serves to protect you from being overwhelmed by life. But sometimes you need to be swept away by life and give in to your senses. There’s truth in our sub…

I think it's the same thing as what we call the unconscious/subconscious (e.g. the place where dreams come from), which I think is more accurate to call a "different" reality as opposed to not real or a sub-reality. From Jung and Freud we know how much of what we usually call reality is just projection from this unconscious world, as well as just how real and autonomous, and likely sentient, the beings that exist in this unconscious world are

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#216

Post by TheRealPomax »

headsoup wrote: post #21
TheRealPomax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But only the state of being intoxicated. No one asks if you binged so much you threw up because otherwise "it didn't count".

No, there are many people who will say you're not drinking properly if you haven't passed out, lost memory, spewed, done something stupid, etc. The argument above is exactly the same with the same qualifier that of course not everyone (or even many) hold that attitude.

We're obviously going to ignore Finland here.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#217

Post by koonsolo »

pmoriarty wrote: post #189
koonsolo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I' not a psychiatric patient, and neither are my kids, so I don't see what drugs could do for me. I'm 43 and never had a cigarette in my mouth, and very happy that I don't have to sit in that disgusting smell in cafes anymore. Do I drink alcohol? Yes. Would I mind if my kids don't drink alcohol? No. I saw alcohol destroy families. And your statement that somehow I and my kids would be curiosities in society just beca…

"I' not a psychiatric patient, and neither are my kids, so I don't see what drugs could do for me." Check out "Jack Herer's First Time High"[1]. (If you're curious, there are more details in the first 12 minutes of this bio on him:[2]) Also see what MDMA did for a man with Aspergers: [3] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYwedCQtW7s [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDRP7rv8ZXc [3] - https://www.youtube.com/w…

Jack Herer doesn't really seem like the man I aspire to be.

Sorry to disappoint, but I also don't have Aspergers.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#218

Post by koonsolo »

stevedewald wrote: post #204
koonsolo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever you recommend to take, I'm sure one of the people I know took it. Did it improve their already normal life? I highly doubt it. I'm not discussing that when you have an illness or mental problem that drugs might help (or which drugs). But just take it because somehow it would "enhance" your life... still need to see proof of that. Most of the "enhancement" that I saw went to other direction.

“Drugs are bad, mmkay” is something we teach kids at an age when they are unable to process more complex or nuanced positions. It’s highly unlikely that you’ve never taken psychoactive substances—caffeine, for example, is found naturally in enough foods that it’s hard to avoid. Many spices produce psychoactive effects—e.g. vanilla, pepper, cinnamon, ginger, saffron, etc. I suspect it’s not your opinion that these are…

> caffeine, for example... vanilla, pepper, cinnamon, ginger, saffron

That's great news for you, because now you don't have to take any of the other drugs if you think these things are the same :P.

> if “drugs are bad” is what you’re teaching them

No, I just show them the people who smoke, and ask them if they want to be like them.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#219

Post by koonsolo »

ilyt wrote: post #206
koonsolo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever you recommend to take, I'm sure one of the people I know took it. Did it improve their already normal life? I highly doubt it. I'm not discussing that when you have an illness or mental problem that drugs might help (or which drugs). But just take it because somehow it would "enhance" your life... still need to see proof of that. Most of the "enhancement" that I saw went to other direction.

Well, you probably enjoyed the art of artist that made it coz he was tripping on drugs at some point. And in some cases that boost to creativity might've earned them a lot of money. But yeah, I'd wager in vast majority of cases the outcome is neutral at best

I'm a big fan of Nirvana, so in that sense you are correct. But I'm not sure I want to live that life or want my kids to live that life.

Re: How safe is ayahuasca? Large-scale study explores

#220

Post by bheadmaster »

moe091 wrote: post #214
bheadmaster wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there's some consistency. But compared to the consistency of experience of the real world, it is lacking and full of holes. Not enough to be called "real", in my opinion.

If you define real as "things that can be seen and confirmed by others" then I agree, I think the only useful argument is whether these hallucinations are any more or less "real" than what we perceive during sober states. When we're sober sobriety feels more real, when we're tripping the trip feels more real, there's no reason to believe either one over the other except that it's easy to justify the realness of sobri…

> I think any skeptic should be skeptical in both directions

I agree.

However, I think skepticism should not stop at "we can't know nothing". Once we've established that, the purpose of skepticism is to figure out which reality has a higher probability to be true. In which case, the sober reality has the advantage of being the first (we are born sober and intoxicate ourselves later) and always being there at the end of every trip. Trips are relatively short compared to our sober state.

Of course, an individual might be intoxicated more than he is sober, in which case, from his perspective, sober life wouldn't be "real". But that might also be the case for alien lifeforms that perceive the world with something other than 5 human senses.

Our world only exists in our minds, but our ability to communicate with others allows us to describe the world to them and hear their descriptions, which gives us a lot of confirmation about reality - which we define to be same for everyone.

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