Nerds and Male Privilege • Hacker News Board

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#211

Post by jcnnghm » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:11 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #170

jcnnghm wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? For example, while women may be asked to smile by random people (44), they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Or, while females spend more time grooming than men (27), they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by mothers who do not like the way they look. There can be some t…

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? Sure. And if you do that in the spirit of saying, "gosh, these are also nice problems to fix one day", that's great. But mostly people bring that argument up in the sense of "Gosh, your life is not 100% shitty, so I'm going to go back to pretending everything is fair now." This argument is so common that it appears on the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: ht…

This argument is so common that it appears on the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://derailingfordummies.com/#butbut (Note that they include as an example your false equivalence between circumcision and female genital mutilation.)

This is really incredible, "Because the removal of a tiny flap of skin is entirely comparable to the crippling mutilation many young girls are subjected to.." Seriously? Why is the removal of a "tiny flap of skin" from a vulva a crippling mutilation, whereas the removal of the foreskin, which has over 2.5 times the number of nerve endings, no big deal? And also, it's not a false equivalency since I did not bring up FGM since it is irrelevant to a discussion that is not centered around third world issues, whereas male genital mutilation is, seeing as how over 50% of males born in the US are still altered. Or are you actually suggesting that any discussion of male genital mutilation is irrelevant because males are not important, or at least not as important as females? Or perhaps that female genital mutilation is so much more important that it is unthinkable to address male genital mutilation at all so long as it is happening to a female somewhere on earth?

And I actually fully believe that the female variant is worse (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3364906), but this language is incredibly inflammatory.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#212

Post by jcnnghm » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:28 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #207

jcnnghm wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder is an incredibly rare occurrence in most countries and social environments. On the other hand, women are a huge majority among rape victims, and this is not exceptional: 5 to 10% of all women are sexually abused at some point (depends upon the country, again). Rape makes up only 6% of violent crimes, and men are much more commonly the victim of violent crimes than women. In fact, excluding rape, as the severit…

> Rape makes up only 6% of violent crimes, and men are much more commonly the victim of violent crimes than women. Most victims of violent crimes are known offenders or their relatives. An overwhelming majority of offenders are male (see the proportion of male vs female in jail). > Nice ad hominem. It's ad personam if you want. You go straight to the usual tactic of pretending that it's the victim fault. Take some ti…

You say that I am blaming the victim, then in your link, the related story is as follows:

First of all, the obvious point is that women's intuition, while not entirely the stuff of myth, is not so powerful that it can automatically separate "good guys" from the bad. No woman can walk down the street and as she passes a man, know with certainty that he isn't a threat. Given the high incidence of rape and assault and harassment and other forms of mistreatment, a woman would be a fool to leave herself continually vulnerable. The old adage "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" seems to apply here. When a simple smile is so frequently misunderstood and construed as a sexual invitation, American women generally do have to operate on the assumption that men are guilty until proven innocent.

Is this really an acceptable story that somehow illustrates your point? It seems like it could trivially be rewritten into something incredibly racist. If that is the case, than isn't this actually very sexist. But really, why would anyone expect random women to smile at them?

And how are women the victim? Because some products are not designed for them, but are instead designed to appeal to teenage boys? What if I feel bad because the quizzes in Seventeen magazine do not appeal to me, and instead give teenage girls ideas about the way men should be that I disagree with. Do you think this quiz (http://www.seventeen.com/fun/quizzes/celebrity/summer-movie-...) is sexist?

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#213

Post by skore » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 11:44 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #200

skore wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, yes, that only changes the entire argument (exception to the rule here being kilts). Thanks for getting me 5 fresh downvotes ;-) (Also, guys: Continuing to downvote me? Come on!) [seems like we have reached the maximum depth here, so as a reply to the below: Nope, sorry. The item of clothing in question makes all the difference here. A dress is a very particular choice of word. And what kind of arguing is that…

If you were willing to honestly consider the point I was attempting to make, then alternatives to "dress" should have been clear. Edit: I have owned up to that. I did not previously consider having cleavage to be an essential requirement for wearing a dress (and for the record, I think such an objection is absurd). However , my point above remains. Were you actually attempting to address the point I was clearly tryin…

Oh, I'm more than happy to concede that point now that we have cleared it up. The problem is that the skirt/pants idea doesn't make for much of an interesting discussion.

I think this comes down to two problems with your wording (and having English as my second language, I had to rely on taking your words by their default meaning): One, the use of dress vs. skirt that we have cleared up and Two, the difference between "message about sexual availability" and "have their sexuality judged".

That's why I initially thought you were making a joke (I found it quite funny, actually) - the difference between those two is simply too great to be making a point. Women in a skirt are judged for whether or not that dresses them to be attractive. Men in a skirt are judged for whether or not they are men at all. A man wearing pants may be judged for how attractive the specific pair of pants makes him, but a woman in pants is judged for that AND for how much it makes her appear to try to be "more manly".

To sum this up - I think you were wrong implying that women are not being judged, sexually, in pants. Furthermore, the man in a skirt point doesn't hold that much value and has only little to do with that and with what you were originally commenting on - the external judgment of sexual availability.

P.S.: As for the absurdity of a cleavage being essential for a dress - it may be debatable to what extend that point really carries, but it is a fact that a dress (again, very specific, check the wiki) is specifically cut to the female anatomy, allowing for unique features of a woman (narrower hips, cleavage). The same is simply not true for a pair of pants.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#214

Post by danilocampos » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:24 AM UTC

elchief wrote: post #72

we invented an awesome playground, and girls are mad cuz they can't dominate it

I know it's Hacker News, but there's really only one response to this. Rest assured I'd say it to your face:

You're an idiot.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#215

Post by einhverfr » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:30 AM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #184

einhverfr wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I don't find it problematic to talk about female privilege at all. I think one has to be careful (just as women have to be careful talking about male privilege) but there are areas where it is so blatant and damaging that it must be talked about, particularly in areas of domestic violence. When I was just out of college, I was (as a male) the victim of some pretty intense domestic violence several times a…

There is more and more work being done in social justice circles now to degender the assumptions in discussions about rape and domestic violence. Many members of earlier generations of feminists found it easy to dismiss talk about problems like domestic violence that affected heterosexual men as unimportant, which is obviously unfortunate. But as gay, lesbian, and transgender people gain visibility within the social…

What's infuriating to me was that even when I was going through this (mid-1990's), I was aware of the statistics, that everyone who had studied gender and violence concluded that there was no significant difference in severity or frequency of domestic violence--- that men were more likely to "beat up" their partners but women were far more likely to assault with weapons. This isn't new data. The problem is that talking about gender privilege has taken place entirely in a discussion about sexism rather than a discussion about society in general.

When we talk about trying to get rid of "heterosexism" (I prefer the term heteronormative because it's purely descriptive but also a lot broader), I don't think that still leaves room at the table for heterosexual male victims of DV. We are still well outside a problem that is mainstream to talk about.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#216

Post by overgryphon » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 1:27 AM UTC

bermanoid wrote: post #137

demallien wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many reasons for women being difficult to recruit in tech. Here's one - if you are an intelligent young woman having just finished high school, and about to choose your university courses you might have a look at the expected pay that you will receive in different industries. You note that in medicine and law women are no longer a minority, and that they receive equal pay, and nearly equal social power as t…

You note that in medicine and law women are no longer a minority, and that they receive equal pay, and nearly equal social power as their male counterparts. Sorry to be [citation needed]-guy, but a quick Googling tells me that this is not true. In both medicine ( http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/02/gender-gap-physician-sal... ) and law ( http://www.theglasshammer.com/news/2009/02/05/the-wage-gap-p... ) the pay gap is…

I am a woman just entering the field after college. So I'm going to speak from my own experiences.

I haven't found much discrimination, but I have noticed that any boss considering to hire me after an internship has asked if/when I plan to have children. This has happened twice, and is the only situation anyone has asked me that question in college. It really is an odd question to ask an 18 year old.

"I wonder what is blocking more women from feeling as passionate about tech as men do, especially since such passion usually emerges very early. Do girls spend less time with computers at the critical young age, perhaps?"

Why does someone have to be interested in computers/video games at a young age to pursue software development? I think the attitude that if you didn't play with computers at a young age you can't do tech is rather egotistical. Some girls I met in college didn't pursue an interest in tech until college and by the end of college you wouldn't know the difference.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#217

Post by prodigal_erik » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 2:09 AM UTC

overgryphon wrote: post #201

burgerbrain wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, there are a few things on that list that don't seem to ring true, or at least seem to be leaving out large portions of the picture. For example: "41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer." The last issue of Playboy that I…

That particular list has been around for years. While a recent issue of Playboy may have topless men, it is historically a men's magazine. If you counted the pictures of women and men in the last year, what would you find? "A woman who has unprotected sex (or for that matter sometimes protected sex) is in a much better position than a man who does the same." Men who have unprotected sex are expected to pay a state-de…

Divorced fathers face state-imposed poverty if not being caged for the sin of existing in a bad economy. Divorced mothers, after a decision that's wholly up to them, can free ride on half of the child's mandated "standard of living" which has almost no relationship to the actual cost of raising a child. We urgently need less unreliable, primitive, unpleasant contraception for men.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#218

Post by prodigal_erik » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 2:19 AM UTC

jdp23 wrote: post #191

Locke1689 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be spending a lot of time making specific excuses to why you don't need to listen to an opposing argument. Perhaps you should realize that your inability to listen to logical arguments is a sign of a problem.

Or, perhaps you should realize that the "logical" arguments are not actually logical and have been repeatedly refuted.

If you're trying to win over rational people, and refutations are out there to be had, they need to be included. Anyone who thinks "everyone says this argument has the same glaring flaws, and that illustrates how awesome the argument is!" is at risk of reaching conspiracy-theory levels of crazy.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#219

Post by gregholmberg » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 2:20 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #158

jcnnghm wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? For example, while women may be asked to smile by random people (44), they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Or, while females spend more time grooming than men (27), they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by mothers who do not like the way they look. There can be some t…

> Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? Sure. My girlfriend can randomly go up to random people and play with their babies, while my doing so is likely to get me arrested. A mother has the presumption of getting custody in a contentious divorce, etc. Nobody would take a sexual harassment complaint against a woman seriously. But you know what? In pure economic terms, I'd take male privilege ov…

Back when I had a boyish appearance (20s, early 30s), parents would smile when their kids tried to play with me. After the gray hair showed up, I could see them pull their kids away, no longer smiling.

In pure economic terms, what price do we put on "forced to feel like a moral leper"?

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#220

Post by wanorris » Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 3:50 AM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #215

wanorris wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more and more work being done in social justice circles now to degender the assumptions in discussions about rape and domestic violence. Many members of earlier generations of feminists found it easy to dismiss talk about problems like domestic violence that affected heterosexual men as unimportant, which is obviously unfortunate. But as gay, lesbian, and transgender people gain visibility within the social…

What's infuriating to me was that even when I was going through this (mid-1990's), I was aware of the statistics, that everyone who had studied gender and violence concluded that there was no significant difference in severity or frequency of domestic violence--- that men were more likely to "beat up" their partners but women were far more likely to assault with weapons. This isn't new data. The problem is that talki…

You're right -- the erasure of straight male domestic violence survivors is not an example of heterosexism, it's gender essentialism. It involves the assumption that being male means being stereotypically masculine, and being female means being stereotypically feminine. (Heterosexism occurs when domestic violence survivors in same-sex relationships are erased because the relationships don't follow the heteronormative male/female dynamic.)

> The problem is that talking about gender privilege has taken place entirely in a discussion about sexism rather than a discussion about society in general.

I agree. Because the first waves of gender studies were "women's studies", it made it much harder to discuss topics outside the basic men-oppress-women dynamic of sexism. And even as gay and lesbian studies became more prominent, there wasn't nearly as much work being done on gender roles as they apply to heterosexual males. Most of the work I've seen that's really applicable to the problem is being done either (to a lesser degree) in studying masculinity and femininity in the context of butch and femme lesbian roles, or from a trans* point of view. Some trans men, in particular, claim the right to be considered men and still be feminine or androgynous, and they can approach the topic without the stigma attached to either gay or straight cis men when they broach the topic outside of narrow venues like drag performances. Hopefully this will be the precursor to constructively reconsidering the entire topic and a general fight against that stigma.