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U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

nytimes.com

211–220 of 242 posts

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#211
post #66

I've abandoned probably a thousand dollars in airfare in my life. Just don't have the energy nor do I think it's possible to get it back. I once cancelled a flight on United, but the $400 "credit" I had (1y expiry) with them had some special "booking code" attached to it (not informed of this on purchase, bought regularly through their website) so the only tickets I was allowed to use the credit on cost > $1000 (regu…

Sometimes I feel like I live in bizarro world, because air travel upsets so many people, and they find it so unpleasant, and I love it. I've had mostly positive experiences. That doesn't mean that nothing has ever gone wrong, but I don't really have an airline horror story (Expedia, on the other hand...)

United took care of everything I wanted through many disruptions, delays and cancellations; I got more than value back. Their agent worked through a complicated ticket reuse scenario with setting up a different number of travelers on a different itinerary, I was thrilled with that experience. Alaska gave me free Premium Economy so that I'd have a better chance to make a connecting flight after a delay, and their agents worked really hard to rebook me for a long international itinerary (including on non-partner airlines) to try to make up my time after another delay (and I didn't need one but they also made sure everyone got hotel vouchers and handheld people through using it for accommodations for those who needed it). Both standout positive experiences. I'm continually impressed by flight attendants as a class, and I've never seen one lose their cool even with bizarre, ignorant, or frustrating passengers. Onboard device stuff works pretty well these days, free messaging and streaming a bunch of media from the onboard server for free is nice! Wi-fi is pretty cheap (half of what hotels which charge for Wi-fi cost).

Flying now is cheaper and more accessible than ever. If you're nostalgic about the golden days of aviation you can still get white-glove service, free cocktails and real silverware if you pay those golden-era prices. If you want to save as much money as possible, you can sit a middle seat without baggage and fly across Europe for $35. I will say that once upon a time you could find "dream fares" on unsold inventory, and those kind of rare deep discounts don't seem to exist, I assume because there are better pricing algorithms for filling flights.

Some of it's knowledge and expectations: I've learned more over the years about things like fare classes. There is a cancellation policy and you agree to it when you buy your fare. It's not like it's a secret. These days you'll almost always see that there's a flexible fare class which gives you more options for cancellation; and some, where you can save money with a nonrefundable fare. I have learned more about the ins and outs are here, over time, so I can certainly understand that if you didn't know these things in advance you'll feel shafted. I've never felt that way but I certainly get it. I guess I just see it more as something to learn rather than something bad someone did to me. I know more about how to spend money on the things I care about and save money on the things I don't.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad thing is that the system constantly says that unsarcastically. Airlines, TSA, and airport messaging constantly remind me to be hours early and to anticipate long security lines.

Real question / Zero trolling: For your travel situaton, is it possible to not fly?

I can drive, spending 20 hours on the road, and 2 nights in a hotel - each way. Hard to say if that is better or worse than flying. The above trip is taken with my family so flying is more expensive than gas+hotels. However last time I took the trip we missed our connection (weather) had to take grey hound there as they couldn't get everyone there. Driving is not fun, but at least we can be sure to arrive on time.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#213
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still going to get to where you want to go and you'll still get a seat. That's the service you're paying for. Disregarding the kidnapping part of your straw man: we also do already charge for priority disembark. This is why premium seating is typically near the boarding door.

> You're still going to get to where you want to go and you'll still get a seat. That's the service you're paying for. The service I'm paying for includes an assigned seat, just like my ticket to the movies does. Its not justifiable for an airline - A federally regulated industry, not some mom and pop local business - to intentionally degrade the quality of their product to nickle and dime their customers. Lets expan…

> federally regulated industry

Regulations are primarily there for safety concerns, not you complaining about what is honestly a non-issue. If you don't want to pay for premium seats just don't pay for them??

But on that note, airline deregulation in the US has been the best thing that has ever happened to air travel. It is now far, far more accessible to travel by air. The revealed customer preference is that very few, if any, people want to go back to being forced to pay the old fares, even if the seats were bigger and the service was better.

> The service I'm paying for includes an assigned seat, just like my ticket to the movies does

Frontier is pretty upfront about this. You certainly have absolutely no guarantee of sitting next to somebody without paying for it one way or another. You get a seat. You don't get to choose your seat. Some theatres also do charge extra for choosing seats, and the ones that don't market themselves as premium theatres.

> some varying strawmen

I certainly don't think any of these techniques should be regulated. I can certainly see a surcharge if you require adjoining rooms in a hotel.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I long ago concluded that TSA is mostly a jobs program, not a security program.

I’m not against government jobs programs. Just wish it was something useful day to day, like healthcare, versus security theater.

Or at least something useless but harmless, like smashing rocks into gravel with hammers. That would be much better than harassing and hassling everybody trying to go on a vacation.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#215
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes so strict that we don't even do the shoe thing or the crotch grab thing here.

We don't? So the officers groped me just for fun this summer? And my GF's bra had to be undone just for fun too?

> So the officers groped me just for fun this summer? And my GF's bra had to be undone just for fun too?

Probably yes. But for their fun, not yours.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather just provide UBI. Pay them to do nothing instead of paying them to make everybody else's lives worse.

Who is them? A UBI is going to normalize condition and make “them” see there’s even more to participate in. Sounds like you still prefer maintenance of a steerage class, assuming you’ll be a bit higher on the totem pole. But I mean, real talk is you’re still just one of billions. How you feel the world as-is is a meaningless measure for how you would fit into a UBI world. And I have no particular obligation to your s…

I think you're overthinking it and "them" here is the TSA employees. UBI by definition means everyone.

Also I have no idea what "normalize condition" means?

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#217
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a general admission concert ticket, your grouping still remains intact. I haven't flown in a while (thankfully), but the original comment makes it sound like they sell you an unassigned seat ticket, but then assign you a specific sometime down the road, perhaps maliciously.

The concert analogy is close but not perfect because the problem is that grouping necessarily puts you into premium seats. If they can sell aisle and window seats at a premium, you can't allow people to group for free without putting people in relatively more premium seats for free. The scale of airline seats (on a single flight) and concert tickets is incredibly different anyway, and different forms of price discrim…

The idea that everything that can be differentially priced should is really annoying and leads to BS like this where everyone's life is worse to marginally increase profits.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#218
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Planes don't have the option to just show up and buy a ticket. Sure they do. Maybe not literally at the door because you have to go through security first. But they'll sell you one at the ticket counter if there are seats available.

Will they really? As far as I know, they stopped doing that years ago, but I might be wrong.

They'll still do it but most planes are oversold already to increase utilization, some of the airline's high rewards levels allow you to force your way onto planes too.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is them? A UBI is going to normalize condition and make “them” see there’s even more to participate in. Sounds like you still prefer maintenance of a steerage class, assuming you’ll be a bit higher on the totem pole. But I mean, real talk is you’re still just one of billions. How you feel the world as-is is a meaningless measure for how you would fit into a UBI world. And I have no particular obligation to your s…

I think you're overthinking it and "them" here is the TSA employees. UBI by definition means everyone. Also I have no idea what "normalize condition" means?

Oh I meant something like equality of condition.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#220
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I to believe that the TSA, FAA and airlines can't coordinate to determine when gluts of incoming passengers are expected? Same with the Customs and Immigration Services (the passport checkers) at SFO. I have seen lines going out to the walkway (leading into the big room). I can't even imagine traveling with a couple of little children; there's no restroom in that big hall. By law, these people get full passenger…

It's tough to live near SFO on a Customs and Border Protection salary. I'm not surprised they have trouble with staffing.

SFO's airport security is actually run by a private firm:

https://www.flysfo.com/about/airport-operations/safety-secur...

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