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Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

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Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#211
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the small players, you aren't reducing the costs This includes but is not limited to 1) the costs of the courts. 2) the costs of the attorneys to defend, 3) the costs of the technology and executives to mount a proper defense, 4) the opportunity cost to the small defending company which COULD OTHERWISE be focusing it's resources on something productive like a new product or support (vs defending a bogus lawsuit).…

Is there a way for you to interact with me without being insulting? I'm trying to learn something and it's getting in the way. If the problem isn't about increasing costs for large players, then what about decreasing those for small players?

The greatest costs are how much time you spend, your attorney's spend, etc. which are not arbitrary fees that can be increased or decreased by decree. So increase or decreasing fees won't improve accountability much.

The basic problem is patent cases are inherently highly complex and specific to particulars and context, and the legal system is inherently inefficient and unpredictable.

These are worst case legal situations for good actors, but the best case terrain for bad actors that can carefully select the battles they want!

The only "simple" solution I can think of is, that a pattern of patent troll behavior is explicitly made illegal, and judgements and findings against trolls can puncture normal limited liability protections of corporations and business arrangements.

Taking out the serial trolls could then be made profitable and repeatable for legal entrepreneurs, who can assemble the deep pockets, and accept the large risks, required.

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#212

Current USPTO patent examiner here. The most effective way to eliminate bad patents would be to give examiners more time, say double the time across the board to start. If an examiner can't find prior art in the little time they're given, and they have no other reasons to reject the application, they'll have to grant it. The amount of time was (basically) set in the 1970s based on data from the 1960s. There have been…

I think a much more efficient method would be to make the rule that if a citizen finds prior art more than 5 years older than the filing of the patent, then the patent holder must pay $1000 to the citizen and the patent will be invalidated. If the patent holder does not pay within 6 months, then all the patent holders patents since then will be invalidated. It has to function without involving the courts as they will…

Tax patents as "property" whose maximum damages are proportional to the taxes paid? Give the owner of the patent a "grace period" and have the taxation schedule ramp up over the life-time of the patent. So, for instance: .1%, .5%, 1%, 3%, 5%, ...

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#213

I find the framing of the conversation around problems with the patent system to largely be about patent trolls quite disingenuous. This might sound controversial, but patent trolls are pretty much the only way for a "small inventor" to monetize a patent (note not invention). If say IBM violates your patent an individual or even a moderate startup or company has absolutely no chance of defending it, because IBM will…

I think the story of "small inventor makes big contribution" is very misleading. If an invention is small enough that someone can make it without spending significant resources, it is probably obvious enough that you shouldn't be allowed to patent it, because it is more likely other people incidentally have the same idea than they are "stealing" it. The only scenario where patents make sense is when a research group…

In your proposed world, shouldn't we simply get rid of patents entirely?

The person who made the flash freezer, for example, was just one person. If he couldn't protect his patent, despite definitively changing the face of global food preparation, why should IBM have any intellectual property?

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#214
post #201

I'm a patent agent and I worked in Google's Patent Litigation department. This is a slight hyperbole, but only slight: I can bust any software patent. I found the prior art that prevented Google Maps from being shut down in Germany: https://www.themarysue.com/google-maps-facing-german-ban/ @btrettel is right that examiners need more time, but that would mean the PTO would have to hire a lot more of them. A better sol…

> change patentable subject matter to (effectively) exclude computer software I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what makes software unique in that it would be effectively excluded by changes while other subject matter (presumably) wouldn't be affected?

> what makes software unique in that it would be effectively excluded

I can answer this:

1) Because software is already covered by copyright.

2) Because any given idea or concept in software can be implemented an infinite number of novel ways. Patents only cover specific implementations of an idea... Not the idea itself.

Let's use Amazon's One Click patent as an example: How many different ways do you think that could be coded/handled? How many different programming languages could be used to make it work?

If the One Click patent was actually specific enough to not be a broad concept (as required by patent law) it would include the actual code that makes it work. That's the software equivalent to an engineer's blueprint. However, if you look at the patent claims (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5960411A/en) you can see that every single claim is just generic nonsense (e.g. "The method of claim 11 wherein the client system and server system communicate via the Internet.").

Even if you add all the claims together and examine the patent as a whole you still get nothing but a broad concept on the idea of clicking once to place an order. Repeat after me: PATENTS ONLY COVER SPECIFIC IMPLEMENTATIONS OF IDEAS, not the ideas themselves. Which is exactly what every single software patent that exists defines: Nothing more than a broad concept.

You could require that patents provide the actual code that makes them work but then they'd be worthless because any given bit of code can be implemented an infinite number of ways. It would be trivial to change a for loop to a while loop or wrap things in functions or even something as simple as using a different programming language. Any of those things and more would get around a patent on a specific implementation of software, aka "code".

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#215
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? What you are proposing has nothing to do with the perfect vs the good, it is a massive fantasy completely ignorant of how things actually work. Fees are merely a rounding error in the overall cost of patents, prosecuting (obtaining) them, pursuing cases against "violators" or defending them. The fees are in the $hundreds to small $thousands of dollars [0]. It typically costs $20,000 to $50,000 in patent lawyer…

Help me understand how cost scaling doesn't fix the problem of "players with money can simply massively burden the minor players, often to bankruptcy." If it becomes more costly for players with more money to burden minor players, then would they not burden minor players less?

> Help me understand

Reducing costs might help, but how would you go about reducing the costs?

As GP points out, the most of the cost isn't government fees. It's paying your own private lawyer or law firm, for their time and advice, assuming you choose to do that. And to the other party's lawyer if you lose in litigation, perhaps.

Your lawyer is a private arrangement which mostly doesn't involve the government. The government fees are already low.

Given that, how does your proposal differ from "patent lawyers should charge much less for their time, to people with less money"? It's hard to imagine them voluntarily reducing their income by a large factor to a large number of people, or agreeing to take on lots of low paid work when they have better offers.

But there are other models, e.g. no win no fee works in some fields.

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#216

I find the framing of the conversation around problems with the patent system to largely be about patent trolls quite disingenuous. This might sound controversial, but patent trolls are pretty much the only way for a "small inventor" to monetize a patent (note not invention). If say IBM violates your patent an individual or even a moderate startup or company has absolutely no chance of defending it, because IBM will…

The small inventor is supposed to monetize a patent by building something useful for society. That's the whole deal. The patent itself shouldn't have value beyond protecting that path.

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it wasn't: Amazon--like everyone else filing a patent--had a duty to bring the idea to market within the time frame that US patent law required, which they then did. _That_ is the how. Demanding the patent goes into the specific details on the "how" gets us things like "they implemented it in JS but we used TS so that's legally distinct, this patent doesn't apply to us" (ignoring how idiotic software patents a…

> Except it wasn't: Amazon--like everyone else filing a patent--had a duty to bring the idea to market within the time frame that US patent law required, which they then did. _That_ is the how. That's not proof of non-obviousness. And even if it were, it's still not a reason to allow 'what' patents (which the law actually doesn't allow! But they get granted anyway). > Demanding the patent goes into the specific detai…

> [1] A test for non-obviousness: does an implementor care to look at your patent or reverse-engineer your implementation, or is a description of what the invention does sufficient?

This seems like a wonderful test of obviousness to me.

However, the "what" could be: "A method of reducing the number of online sales that are attempted but somehow aborted".

The "solution" of having a single click to purchase, in the context of cached purchase info and permission, might not be obvious to everyone working on that problem. (Even though it might be obvious in hindsight - which is not a barrier to patentability.)

That "solution" is specific enough to not block other's from solving the same problem (avoidance of aborted purchases) in via different methods.

That would be the approach I would use to defend single-click against your test. (Not a lawyer, no special legal expertise, just working through the logic as I can see it.)

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#218
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the small players, you aren't reducing the costs This includes but is not limited to 1) the costs of the courts. 2) the costs of the attorneys to defend, 3) the costs of the technology and executives to mount a proper defense, 4) the opportunity cost to the small defending company which COULD OTHERWISE be focusing it's resources on something productive like a new product or support (vs defending a bogus lawsuit).…

Is there a way for you to interact with me without being insulting? I'm trying to learn something and it's getting in the way. If the problem isn't about increasing costs for large players, then what about decreasing those for small players?

Because these questions are so obvious it seems like trolling, sorry for the impatience.

Having run businesses, been involved with patents and the courts, some things are blindingly obvious. So I'll step back a bit.

First, the courts are insanely overworked, so things take forever, lawsuits are insanely expensive for both sides. Most importantly, the entire court system is structured to be anti-scaleable.

Even attempting to use the courts as a scaling solution works against the entire design. If you are sued, you have lost the minute you get served - defendant always pays, and the entire effort and costs are on you, even if you win. The only solution would be to redesign the entire court system, and since the courts are constitutional creations, that means literally re-constituting the entire country (Constitutional Convention, dissolve the old constitution, start from scratch; I can hardly think of anything more dangerous in today's climate).

On the small business side, there is literally nothing that can be done.

Even take a thought experiment where someone magically funds a bottomless supply of money to defend patent cases — no small biz ever spends a penny on attorneys and court costs, and can always afford the best attorneys (nevermind that wrongly accused criminal defendants still need to get by with underpaid & overworked public defenders).

This is still a massive unbearable cost for the small or medium sized business, simply because of the huge of management distraction involved in running a lawsuit. In a lawsuit, it is NOT just "let the attorneys handle it". Every case is unique, and the attorneys are handling only the legal issues — they need to be educated from scratch on the issues in the case, and all that time and effort to educate the attorneys comes from the defendants. Then, the defendants must to sit for depositions (a whole day or more), which need extensive preparation, and be involved in preparing for trial, which just blows entire days or weeks out of the schedule, and so on...

So, even if the external costs are 100% paid, it is still enormously costly. Even if you also paid every exec and employee involved their entire fully loaded employment cost, it is STILL too costly, because of the opportunity cost. Those person-months of time are all taken from the company's productive work on their products.

Now, multiply this by dozens or hundreds of lawsuits on every patent, trying to simply sort out whether the patent is even valid. The overall cost to society would be insanely massive. Giving each patent examiner 10X the time (vs the simple doubling requested by the examiner's comment above), and doubling their pay would not even be a rounding error compared to the costs you would impose on every innovative business with such a court-based plan. And, the results would be worse.

Part of the reason I find this annoying is that I also used to start from a Libertarian perspective. It is very attractive. But every time I started to work through how a Libertarian solution would ACTUALLY work, I found that even the first-order consequences were ludicrous, and usually ludicrously expensive. I would up re-inventing the government structures that we already have. So, it is either naive, or a trope to sucker naive people into trying to tear down the institutions that society has already built. Of course these need to be improved, and they should be, but the L approach really doesn't begin to work.

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#219

I find the framing of the conversation around problems with the patent system to largely be about patent trolls quite disingenuous. This might sound controversial, but patent trolls are pretty much the only way for a "small inventor" to monetize a patent (note not invention). If say IBM violates your patent an individual or even a moderate startup or company has absolutely no chance of defending it, because IBM will…

Definitely the patent system has some issues. It certainly offers way too many protections with far too few checks. But there seem to be some strong assumptions here.

> patent trolls are pretty much the only way for a "small inventor" to monetize a patent

In the current system, yes, but in general no. The outcome is tied to the "litigation costs" precisely because the patent office is underequipped, leaving the burden of investigation on individuals. Strengthening the authority, and actively prosecuting and penalizing patent troll behavior increases both cost & risk, while cutting income. Your investigative authority doesn't need to be perfect - just better - to significantly change trolling economics.

> because IBM will either drown you in litigation cost ...

IBM is one of the longest standing patent troll companies and these are cookie cutter patent troll tactics. Good anti-troll legislation dilutes this by strengthening the investigations.

Re: Delaware judge discovers hidden entity recruiting people to be patent trolls

#220

Current USPTO patent examiner here. The most effective way to eliminate bad patents would be to give examiners more time, say double the time across the board to start. If an examiner can't find prior art in the little time they're given, and they have no other reasons to reject the application, they'll have to grant it. The amount of time was (basically) set in the 1970s based on data from the 1960s. There have been…

It's tiring to hear people in government say all their problems can be solved with more people and more money.
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