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Learning Is Remembering

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Re: Learning Is Remembering

#211
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learn a lot. The way I've learned best for me is to mimic children. Especially small children. They focus intently at seemingly incomprehensible complexity. Then they play with the small fragments they can get their hold on. "ba-ba-ba-ba" when they're learning to speak. They play. They combine two (or more) different things they're interested in into a single experiment which we think of more as play. Mushy food? I…

Arguably, the whole point of play is learning.

For some, yes. And their secondary benefit is joy.

For others, no. It's joy. And their secondary benefit is learning.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#212

In the 1600s, educators in Nuremberg (Germany) were proud of a pedagogical technique that they had developed, called the "Nuremberg funnel" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Funnel ). In this "hydraulic" model of learning, they were proud to have developed an effective technique for "pouring" knowledge into the empty brains of students. Centuries of research have shown that this model is flawed in many ways (…

I'd offer a similar criticism. The problem with "our working memory has a maximum capacity of roughly 4 [chunks of information at once]" is that the units ("chunks" was original) winds-up undefined and moreover it tempts one just divide whatever a person seems to be able to process into four things and call them units.

And the way I'd see your "funnel" criticism applying is that each student can easily begin with a different set of mental tools, some of which let them take an idea as one relatively small "chunk" and some of which might process the idea as several "chunks".

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#213

There is a difference between remembering something (like a fact) and a deep understanding of a concept. Let me give you an example in programming: I sometimes have to google for the names of functions I've already used a hundred times. Sometimes extremely simple functions (just a while ago it was list.size() in Java), only because I can't remember the name of the function, but of course I understand the concept - th…

It's even harder to remember specific standard library functions after learning several programming languages. I know the languages themselves but still have to look this stuff up every time. One reason why Ruby is such an ergonomic language is there are aliases for all those names: you can guess length, size and count and chances are all three will work.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#214

There is a difference between remembering something (like a fact) and a deep understanding of a concept. Let me give you an example in programming: I sometimes have to google for the names of functions I've already used a hundred times. Sometimes extremely simple functions (just a while ago it was list.size() in Java), only because I can't remember the name of the function, but of course I understand the concept - th…

It's interesting you mention playing the piano as an example, because that's a very good example of how the opposite of what you're saying is true. Try to learn a piano piece simply by playing it many times, and it'll never happen. However, try to commit the notes intentionally to memory, and reading the notes becomes unnecessary very quickly. Same with trying to memorize text; if you read without explicitly trying to memorize it, you can read it infinite times and never manage to recite it back.

I think your example about list.size doesn't contradict this. It's the difference between "familiarity recognition" memory vs "consolidation and retrieval".

You do not bother committing "size()" because it's unnecessary (or because there's a lot of interference from other languages which do the same thing, hence the cost of committing that fact for later retrieval is not worth doing so).

But you have committed the "concept" to memory, and this can be retrieved even without the need for the label.

"Understanding" is only part of the equation. But I do generally feel that "having the basic building blocks readily available helps you build complex understanding on top of them, which then helps you consolidate the complex stuff better" is probably the main direction, rather than "understanding a complex concept helps you better remember the basic building blocks that made it up in the first place".

This is also why anki works so well for learning theoretical subjects (even if it has traditionally been more popular for pure memorization tasks, like language learning)

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#215
post #64

Learning is as much forgetting as remembering. When I study something, I go for awhile, but eventually it becomes difficult, confusing, hard to see the forest for the trees. Particularly with technical information and skills like programming (or natural) languages. When I come back a little bit later, I find that I only remember the things that made sense; my confusions are forgotten, and there is fresh mental space…

I'm still staggered how potent a post effort pause can get. I can spend hours and days trying to improve something and not being able to see the easiest spots. I come back 4 days later and everything just jumps out as obvious as day. No confusion, no fatigue, lots of ideas, enthusiasm, creativity..

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> google for the names of functions Copilot is a lifesaver here. I almost never have to google function names anymore because it just fills them in for me, while usually generating exactly the code I wanted around it.

If only there was a way to know which methods the object has. We could call such concept something like auto-discovery or magic-completion.

I use that too, but Copilot is just better much of the time.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#217
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of Feynman's anecdote about the names of a bird. > See that bird? It’s a brown-throated thrush, but in Germany it’s called a halzenfugel, and in Chinese they call it a chung ling and even if you know all those names for it, you still know nothing about the bird. You only know something about people; what they call the bird. Now that thrush sings, and teaches its young to fly, and flies so many miles away d…

Counter-anecdote time from Murray Gel-Mann, who did think names were important [1] [1] https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/05/remembering-murr...

I don't think anyone in computers can purport to names being important. Shell's sort, Bloom's filter, awk, c++, Java vs JavaScript....

The number of names that are misleading or almost willfully obtuse is absurdly high. (I'm actually cheating for folks in my list, as I typically see it just shown as shell sort and bloom filter. Which hides that it is named for someone.)

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#218
post #152
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you've gone pretty far. I assume you started with something like radicals (constructive strokes) and built up to more complex Kanji/pictograms. I know in speaking to native Mandarin speakers that they see stroke order in the characters and were intrigued that I don't see that in english. Often we just learn the sound/typed elements (e.g. pinyin), which I guess might be like modern asian kids. Have you l…

Stroke order sounds like a burden to Westerners but it actually helps with memorizing characters, and makes your handwriting less awful.

[deleted]

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#219
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learn a lot. The way I've learned best for me is to mimic children. Especially small children. They focus intently at seemingly incomprehensible complexity. Then they play with the small fragments they can get their hold on. "ba-ba-ba-ba" when they're learning to speak. They play. They combine two (or more) different things they're interested in into a single experiment which we think of more as play. Mushy food? I…

Arguably, the whole point of play is learning.

Learning is often a byproduct of play, but the actual point of play is highly subjective to whoever is doing the playing. Although, in my experience, if you need to learn something, making it into a game is a highly effective and fun way to go about something that might otherwise be pretty dull.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#220

In the 1600s, educators in Nuremberg (Germany) were proud of a pedagogical technique that they had developed, called the "Nuremberg funnel" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Funnel ). In this "hydraulic" model of learning, they were proud to have developed an effective technique for "pouring" knowledge into the empty brains of students. Centuries of research have shown that this model is flawed in many ways (…

> It's disappointing to see such as simple-minded idea, which has been so profoundly debunked by huge amounts of research, on the front page of HN.

My read is that the author actually agrees with you. The author points out that all students have a starting non-empty state (long term memory), and the goal of learning is to build on top of that. It's just defining the space of "learnable" things as distance from long term memory. This doesn't seem that controversial?

They even call out all the things you call out as effective:

> Everything we know about learning efficiently is directly related to memory - "good" teachers, "good" explanations, images, diagrams, maths problems, essays, practical assignments all are good for learning because they help move things into your long-term memory.

I suspect the thing upsetting you is the call out to spaced repetition?

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