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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#211

Post by prmoustache »

caycep wrote: post #77
rmbyrro wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

The question in my mind is how can a country like Portugal grow something home grown, industry/economy wise to ameliorate this situation? Ukraine had traditional industries but it seems like the IT/knowledge worker base they built up over the past 5-10 years seems to be softening some of the economic blows of the war for them, but I can't imaging IT is the answer to every country...

I read somewhere that there was a raise in bicycle factories in Portugal. Some euro companies are attractee by the idea of being able to put a made/assembled in europe label while keeping labour cost low, avoid asian supply issues and portugal provides that.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#212

Post by immibis »

closedloop129 wrote: post #187
humanwhosits wrote: post #142

Why does anyone let non-resident people buy residential housing?

That's the wrong question. If you sell housing to non-resident people, you receive money to build more housing. The question should be: Why does anybody limit supply of housing to the point that prices rise? The French did a bad job at building satellite cities, but done right, you could connect new housing to the city center like the original Los Angeles street cars. If jobs don't pay much then you also don't pay mu…

You're conflating different values of "you". If I sell my house to a non-resident person and receive money, why should I use that money to build more housing, rather than a Ferrari? Meanwhile, the people who actually build the houses aren't the ones selling all the existing stock in the most desirable locations. They are stuck building suburban sprawl because that's where the empty space is.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#214

Post by DrNosferatu »

rmbyrro wrote: post #62
motohagiography wrote: post #29

Some Canadian cities responded to this with a foreign buyers tax, notably in Vancouver. Florida has a method for balancing its "snowbird" population to do with foreign buyers. Personally, I think this is the effect of governments themselves no longer believing in nations and borders or a responsibility for them, and simply importing polarized populations of both very rich and very poor people whose effect in concert…

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

I disagree, Portugal does offer something interesting:

Cheap labor.

In fact, some of the cheapest in the EU - both qualified and non. It even can be said that the current Portuguese Economic Model is intra-EU salary dumping.

(and a lot of rent-seeking)

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#215

Post by [deleted] »

immibis wrote: post #204
asdff wrote: post #203

Why is the situation always "lets attempt to tax investors who are notorious for skirting around their full tax burden" instead of directly attacking the conditions that lead to this area being a favorable area to park money in the first place? Namely, you have too many jobs and not enough housing. Sometime in the last 100 years, leaders around the western world realized the massive real estate opportunity of strangl…

Nobody wins elections by promising to destroy jobs.

[deleted]

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#216

Post by jollybean »

It's the same everywhere.

Vancouver, Toronto.

Surpluses are being gathered by the global elite and they are coming back to buy property the locals cannot afford and leave the spaces underutilized and empty.

How on god's green earth we allow our 'land' in urban areas - a very valuable resource to be 'exported' while owners pay nary any taxes ... is completely insane.

We should basically ban foreign ownership, or, tax it heavily and especially require domiciles to be either occupied or to have a tax so that it 'gets occupied' at some rate.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#217

Post by jollybean »

rmbyrro wrote: post #62
motohagiography wrote: post #29

Some Canadian cities responded to this with a foreign buyers tax, notably in Vancouver. Florida has a method for balancing its "snowbird" population to do with foreign buyers. Personally, I think this is the effect of governments themselves no longer believing in nations and borders or a responsibility for them, and simply importing polarized populations of both very rich and very poor people whose effect in concert…

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

Instead of selling their land, they can lease it, with a heavy tax on top.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#218

Post by jollybean »

jdmg94 wrote: post #127
motohagiography wrote: post #29

Some Canadian cities responded to this with a foreign buyers tax, notably in Vancouver. Florida has a method for balancing its "snowbird" population to do with foreign buyers. Personally, I think this is the effect of governments themselves no longer believing in nations and borders or a responsibility for them, and simply importing polarized populations of both very rich and very poor people whose effect in concert…

Vancouver is a disaster in housing affordability, economic opportunities (outside of real estate), and they have a very big and public homeless crisis.

Homelessness and home prices are actually separate problems, even though they feel linked, they are barely so.

You can have a relatively affordable city like Montreal and still a lot of homelessness.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#219

Post by jollybean »

DrNosferatu wrote: post #199

Very difficult to change because, in the "Pax Neoliberalia" world we live in, profits are Sacrosanct - and the higher the capital concentration, the holier so. But some straightforward fixes: 1. Flood the market with affordable state housing, Austria-style - with the bonus of building new, boosting the national economy. 2. Create very progressive (rapidly rising) taxes based on property value - making untenable the c…

Well #1 is not 'straightfoward' fixes at all. Massive Real Estate buildouts are 'gigantic' industrial projects.

A 'straight forward fix' is to ban foreign ownership of homes and AirBnB. Poof. Now, I wouldn't support that, but it would be 'straight forward'.

#2 is reasonable.

#3 is a big glib tough. "Hey, everyone should just get a raise!", if it were only that easy!

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#220

Post by kipchak »

dogman144 wrote: post #99

I don’t know what’s the correct approach with this. I’m a globe trotting engineer who understands globalism and what access tech is opening up to it. I don’t mean being a digital nomad. Rather, tech is collapsing or expanding concepts of borders, nationalism and so on in very meaningful ways. That’s a hugely compelling area to work in vs chasing an OKR for Google ads. I don’t think it’s reversible, and I find a lot o…

I think the fundamental question is by what right does someone have "right" to something like land or the buildings on it, by the open market and wealth or by already living there? Neither is really fair or equitable. But I worry what will happen as more people start to feel (justifiably so) they're getting a raw deal on both fronts.
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