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Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

bbc.co.uk

211–220 of 360 posts

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.

No post body was provided.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#212
post #163

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> And if so, what level of fame does someone have to have before it's legal to say what you think about them in public? Obviously subjective and would be determined in a court of law (public figure vs not a public figure). And besides, there are still limits to that regardless. If you publish a damaging lie about a public figure, they can sue you for very large amounts of money as they see fit. For example, if you're…

> For example, if you're the NY Times and you print that a very famous actor is a pedo, and do so without enormous amounts of proof, prepare for an epic lawsuit that you will lose badly.

did this happen? i thought not being able to say whatever you wanted about public figures was a uk thing

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

He added a lot of undue trauma and made them the target of his rabid followers and they were constantly (and still are) inundated with harassing calls/emails/etc up to and including regular death threats, and some of Jones' unstable cult are fully capable of being mentally ill enough to do that. What would it be like to constantly be looking over your shoulder for someone ready to blow your head off

> stjohnswarts - He added a lot of undue trauma and made them the target of his rabid followers and they were constantly (and still are) inundated with harassing calls/emails/etc up to and including regular death threats, and some of Jones' unstable cult are fully capable of being mentally ill enough to do that. What would it be like to constantly be looking over your shoulder for someone ready to blow your head off

ah ok... so if I say something, and someone else does something because they think they should, I am responsible for it? (even if I never told anyone to do anything)... are those people being prosecuted too? or does he take all the blame?

I probably should be 100 years in jail and pay 200 millions... who knows what people have done after what I said... The justice system is a bit strange, to say the least.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.

The solution to that is not suppression of the idea(s), in fact attempts to suppress anyone talking about the election only serve as fuel to expand the number of people that believe it, as "what are they trying to hide" becomes of the main part of the story. Greater, and Actual Transparency combined with a trust worthily network of news outlets would go along way to shut down these types of discussions Sadly we have…

> More Facts, less Spin

What the United States needs to target is the economics of news. Actual news. Not infotainment.

Don't attempt to regulate good/bad news: economically incentivize good reporting and disincentivize bad reporting. The market will follow.

If 24/7 news channels weren't profitable... there wouldn't be any 24/7 news channels.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#216
post #163

Quoted post unavailable.

> People should be able to monetize lies. What? No. > And people should be able to say things about people or companies that might cause a crazy person to do something crazy. Yeah sure, but that's not the issue here. > If the parents of Sandy Hook were harassed then the issue here is surely the harassers? False dilemma. > The reason I worry about this is because if I believe someone is doing something evil does that…

>> People should be able to monetize lies.

>What? No.

He was obviously arguing from a standpoint that there shouldn't be a law against that specifically (there isn't), due to the implications such a law would have.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

and it's still more important to have free speech because who decides "truth" and "lie"... and what happens when those in power switch and the other side decides. Want Biden or Obama to have some power? Are you going to be okay with Bush or Trump gets that power?

I don’t think I suggested granting a particular power to the president. I just engaged in a discussion on the nature of truth and lies.

I would suggest that you at least try to put yourself in the position of these parents when thinking about this topic (as impossible as that may be). Imagine having your child murdered then having this waste of life make up vicious lies about you and your dead child.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#218
Let me give you a rundown of the lore on this saga because it's psychotic. He is most known for Info Wars. His various claims have been beyond bizarre, including psychic vampires.

Alex Jones, for those who don't know, is a fringe conservative commentator long before we had terms like "alt-right". He shot to fame (in those circles) with his claims about the Sandy hook massacre saying it was faked and a government false flag operation.

This unleashed his unhinged followers to harass the families who just had their child killed by a mass shooter. Many had to move, go into hiding, get therapy and so on.

He became even more (in)famous because of his ties to Trump. Trump was on his show.

Jones got deplatformed by Youtube in 2018. As has become clear, this didn't impact his earnings at all.

What came out of this and other court proceedings is that Jones had revenue of $50-100 million per year (since at least 2012). At times in 2018 he was making $800,000/day. This was from selling supplements and merch as well as from Info Wars. He claimed to be going bankrupt because of this proceedings, to which someone anonymously donated $8 million in crypto just last month.

The parents who were harassed because of his lies (he admitted they were lies in court) have individually sued him. This case is in Texas. Most are in Connecticut. This is just the first trial of many. What we've seen this week is just the penalty phase of the Texas trial. He's already been found guilty.

During discovery for this trial, Jones had to produce any texts and emails relating to Sandy Hook. He claimed there were none.

LLast week, his lawyers gave the plaintiff's attorney a complete copy of everything on his phone for a 2 year period. In legal proceedings this is called "inadvertent production" and there are mechanisms for rectifying this. Opposing counsel informed Jones's lawyers os this mistake and they did... nothing.

No effort was made to correct the error, assert privilege or assert confidentiality (according to the order for discovery). A 10 day window passed that basically meant that Jones's lawyers didn't assert privilege so the plaintiff's attorneys is free to do with that whatever they want (minus some medical records that need to be destroyed).

The January 6 committee had been trying to get just the metadata from Jones for their investigation and had thus far failed. They have now subpoenaed these records.

This information will likely be available in all the subsequent trials.

So you have Jones who failed to produce relevant documents, lied under oath about that discovery and (maybe) his lawyers making knowingly false statements. This last point is important. As an attorney you can't (technically) tell a lie. If you know your client is guilty you can't lie and say they're not. If they knew of Sandy Hook texts and emails existing, not being produced and made false statements to the court about that, they can face displinary action.

But it doesn't end there. Including in this massive data dump there was found child porn material. Jones has, I believe, claimed this was "malware".

While all this is going on, while proceedings are still active, Jones went on his show and called the judge a pedophile. He even published a photo of the judge's likeness burning, which you could reasonably view as a threat.

Remember this guy has revenues north of $50 million per year. That's relevant because Texas law has various limits on punitive damages. That's why there was testimony about Jones's income and assets in the punitive damage phase (ie punitive damages capped to a certain nebulous percentage under Texas law).

The net result? $4 million in compensatory damages and another $45 million in punitive damages. People are talking about how bankruptcy won't protect him from this but I'm not sure people realize just how much money this guy has made.

This may well be the craziest legal thing I've ever seen.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be due process concerns over refusing to follow the due process?

In theory, the challenge to a default judgement would be due process based. In practice, this particular case is practically a textbook example of when due process is appropriate, so I don't see how such a claim could possibly succeed. The point I was making by bringing up a due process claim was that there is no path for this case to become precedent regarding free speech.

Oh I track now, thanks for clarifying.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be due process concerns over refusing to follow the due process?

Jones was afforded due process. Due process requires you to participate in the _process_, which he refused to do repeatedly, for years. He can appeal, but the authority for a trial court to issue a default judgement is not new precedent but rather well established. It’s quite _rare_, but it’s happened before.

I see now. Thanks
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