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Linux 5.19

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Re: Linux 5.19

#211

Post by tekknik »

hnlmorg wrote: post #131
vocram wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Text navigation works in the same way on Linux/mac using readline key bindings.

Not sure what you're implying here. CLI applications? Because they'd obviously behave the same. The issues I've noticed are around desktop applications. For example if I select some text in KWrite (KDE's "Notepad") by using SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW then it will select the word. If I do the equivalent in Notes (macOS) it will select the whole line, not just the word (I tested this just now too). This platform specific be…

> SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW then it will select the word. If I do the equivalent in Notes (macOS) it will select the whole line, not just the word (I tested this just now too).

Use option instead of control here.

Re: Linux 5.19

#212

Post by necovek »

Meltion3 wrote: post #111
necovek wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like MacBooks could easily end up becoming the laptop of choice for Linux developers in the years to come. Having used MacBook Pro 14" with an M1 Max for ~6 months, I'd really wonder which developer submits themselves to such a glare-emitting screen and crappy keyboard (and potentially imprinting their palms/wrists on the sharp front edge), if you can get a Thinkpad X1 Carbon for much less? Sure, performan…

I was surprised about this hard edge as well. But as I only use it on a docking station, all good.

Did you experience any issues with USB-C monitors? I have a Dell U3219Q as a docking station, and my Thinkpads running Linux never put it in a state MacOS was able to: it won't turn on after Mac suspends, and it requires an intricate dance to unplug it from the socket and then turn it on while connected for it to restart working, and not even that always works.

Re: Linux 5.19

#213

Post by necovek »

throwingrocks wrote: post #104
necovek wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like MacBooks could easily end up becoming the laptop of choice for Linux developers in the years to come. Having used MacBook Pro 14" with an M1 Max for ~6 months, I'd really wonder which developer submits themselves to such a glare-emitting screen and crappy keyboard (and potentially imprinting their palms/wrists on the sharp front edge), if you can get a Thinkpad X1 Carbon for much less? Sure, performan…

> I'd really wonder which developer I’m wondering the same. It’s probably just a few?

Oh, I know it's masses of them (my previous company prescribed them, which is how I got the unfortunate experience). That does not make it any less perplexing to me ;)

Re: Linux 5.19

#214

Post by alexeiz »

So Linus wants to use an arm64 to build and test kernel. Why not use AWS Graviton instead? Graviton3 may be slightly less powerful than M1 for single core workloads, but for multicore workloads like building the kernel it's much better suited. In fact, I don't understand why Linus uses a laptop for development. You can easily configure a more powerful cloud instance for the type of work he does. It may be costing more than the Macbook Air M1, but I'm sure the Linux Foundation can afford it.

Re: Linux 5.19

#215

Post by hnlmorg »

tekknik wrote: post #209
hnlmorg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots more different than that: + Windows has the Windows key (which Linux called "super") + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that + The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). The # and / keys I find particularly ha…

> macOS keyboard shortcuts that differ in really confusing ways too. Like + Ctrl+C vs Cmd+C + Text area navigation on a Mac is totally different too. Home and End buttons behave differently. Ctrl+Arrow keys don't work. Shift+Arrow keys don't select. etc Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine. Shift + Arrow keys do sel…

> Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine.

I'd say they're the same in terms of comfort but I do appreciate CMD+C when working in the terminal.

> Shift + Arrow keys do select text, you must have something configured differently.

They select text differently. I went into more details about the differences there in a different post on this same thread.

> Overall my experience with Apple keyboard shortcuts is much more positive than on Window and Linux. On Windows it feels like they've run out of modifier keys due to locking the Windows key behind windows specific features, and Linux mostly just copied windows.

I think it's 100% down to whatever is muscle memory. I've you're more familiar with the Mac shortcuts then you'll prefer that, and likewise for the Windows/Linux shortcuts. Saying one is better than the other is rather silly when it's entirely down to whatever you've committed to muscle memory.

Hence why my point wasn't about preference but rather just pointing out that there are differences one has to adapt to when switching from one platform to another (whichever direction that switch might be).

Re: Linux 5.19

#216

Post by capableweb »

tekknik wrote: post #208
Twisell wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess working on bare metal was implied. Virtualization have always been useful but it's another use case. Asahi enable user to bypass MacOS entirely which I guess is the only satisfying way to use apple silicone for Linus Torvalds.

What would happen in Linus decided he likes MacOS better? He’s kinda stuck at this point no?

Why would he be stuck? Many people are pragmatists over purists, wouldn't be far out if Linus was as well. I've written many tools myself that were better than anything I could find, but at a later point I found a "competitor" that did something better than me, and subsequently dumped my tool in favor of the better one. I for one don't care who writes the software, if it's better it's better.

Re: Linux 5.19

#217

Post by WhyNotHugo »

nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

> The Asahi developers have also stated that Apple tends to keep hardware peripheral interfaces stable across generations (they speculate that this is to keep things easy for their own OS dev teams)

It's crazy what happens when hardware designers collaborate with software developers. The current de-facto standard of working in silos with no regard for how the other party gets their part done is what's led us to the current global status quo.

Re: Linux 5.19

#218

Post by Lio »

coldpie wrote: post #159
School-Cotton wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it irritating when people quote semver like it’s some kind of law. It’s a random protocol someone came up with that some other people decided to follow. It’s nowhere near a de facto standard for version numbers: plenty of software has non-semver version numbers (in fact, this applies to all software I have worked on so far in my career!)

I think it's pretty clear semver doesn't really have a place in modern software. Except for Microsoft, no one cares about backwards compatibility, which semver is all about. All software is continually developed, every release contains both new features and bug fixes, which violates semver. The vast majority of software has a meaningless "1." or "0." tacked to the front to try to satisfy semver, until the project get…

> Except for Microsoft, no one cares about backwards compatibility

That would seem to be contradicted by Linus's "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE"[1].

The Linux community clearly cares for backwards compatibility too.

1. https://linuxreviews.org/WE_DO_NOT_BREAK_USERSPACE

Re: Linux 5.19

#219

Post by dagw »

Lio wrote: post #218
coldpie wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty clear semver doesn't really have a place in modern software. Except for Microsoft, no one cares about backwards compatibility, which semver is all about. All software is continually developed, every release contains both new features and bug fixes, which violates semver. The vast majority of software has a meaningless "1." or "0." tacked to the front to try to satisfy semver, until the project get…

> Except for Microsoft, no one cares about backwards compatibility That would seem to be contradicted by Linus's "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE" [1]. The Linux community clearly cares for backwards compatibility too. 1. https://linuxreviews.org/WE_DO_NOT_BREAK_USERSPACE

That's "Linux" the kernel, not the operating system. No one building a 'modern' desktop OS on top of that kernel cares. Download a 20 year old Linux binary and try running it on a random up to date linux distro. Unless it's a trivial program it will almost certainly fail.

Re: Linux 5.19

#220

Post by viraptor »

rayiner wrote: post #197
dm319 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a long-time Thinkpad user, it usually helps to not go for the latest/greatest, but even so, the time between release and 99% working linux is in the region of months with Thinkpads, whereas it can be years-never with Mac. I had some issues with my AMD X13 when getting it new - but they weren't show-stopping, just annoying, and they got ironed out over the next 6 months.

But that supports the point OP made above. Each generation of Lenovo laptop changes out lots of parts (presumably based on changing prices and supply contracts). Apple laptop hardware tends to be stable over time.

> Apple laptop hardware tends to be stable over time.

I'm confused where you got that idea. T2 chips changed a lot. The most recent Intel MBPs have a different wifi with a known-broken firmware for Linux. The sound handling has also changed and hasn't been reverse engineered yet since 2019. And that's before we even get to changing the entire architecture to M1. How is that less changes than lenovo?

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