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The Global Cost of Corrosion

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Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#211

Post by nomel »

jacquesm wrote: post #129
riversflow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is “plastic was the mistake” any more reasonable than “electricity was the mistake” Plastic is indispensable just like electricity.

Plastic is indispensable completely unlike electricity is indispensable. Plastic is a huge pollutant, with breakdown stats that make you cry once you start thinking in terms of tons of absolutely indestructible stuff that makes it into our environment every day. Only a very small fraction of that stuff really needed to be made from plastic. Mostly it is just done because it is cheap and mechanically well understood.…

What do you see as the material that could have been used, or could be used, to replace plastic?

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#212

Post by eternityforest »

function_seven wrote: post #104
asimpletune wrote: post #48

I’ve spent years working on a VW bus restoration, and this is something I’ve thought about so much. Once you’ve had to clean up rust you begin to see it everywhere. It’s like having a disease. Anyways, yeah it would be fantastic if metal just didn’t corrode. That would be one of the greatest gifts to the world.

There are these world-changing inventions we look back on and marvel at. The Haber–Bosch process, the Bessemer process, rubber vulcanization, etc. My dream is one for stainless steel. Come up with either a different alloy or an improved process to make corrosion-proof metal from abundant iron. I can't imagine the leap forward if a chunk of stainless cost nearly the same as mild steel. (And didn't have weird failure m…

For some applications, plastic fills that role very well. A lot of stuff would probably be made with plastic, and be just as durable, if we didn't have this "Stuff should feel substantial" design mindset.

It's amazing how there's such a strong preference for things with size and weight, and how plastic is seen as cheap trash rather than an engineering marvel.

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#213

Post by robertlagrant »

hammock wrote: post #27
hristov wrote: post #8

This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by…

>This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Reduce, reuse, recycle. In that order

Exactly. Reducing is the exact opposite of oxidising. Don't let your car rust!

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#214

Post by mlyle »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #204
mlyle wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is my impression that older Mercedes are pretty good in this department. I still see so many mid-80's Accords in the US. Yes, there's probably a somewhat smaller share of them that survived than mid-80's BMWs, but there's a lot of factors that go into survival (Honda == cheaper to keep going as a beater; BMW == higher initial value / treated nicer for the earlier parts of its lifespan).

You see so many mid 80s Accords in the US for the same reason you still see a lot of 90s Caddys despite them being objectively crap cars. The people who bought them could afford to keep them nice, not beat the shit out of them and maintain them as they needed it so they lasted. Your average 1990ish Accord commuter sedan lived a far, far, far easier life, at least for the first 10-15yr than your average Ford Taurus or…

> Accord commuter sedan lived a far, far, far easier life

I think you've got this backwards when you're looking at the mid-80's. The Accord was very much a bottom-of-the-barrel option that didn't get as nice of care as most cars-- certainly compared to the European imports that you're comparing to. Especially e.g. probability of being garaged.

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#215

Post by fomine3 »

luma wrote: post #174
justinator wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW has been caught lying about the capabilities of their cars, then the executives blamed the engineers to cover their asses. If one needs a reason to forget about VW.

VW was the _first_ company selling diesel powered passenger vehicles to be caught lying. Opel/GM, Chrysler, Nissan, Jeep, Renault, Peugeot, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, and Porsche were all later caught somehow skirting diesel emissions testing. Basically all large truck manufacturers did it too. Clean diesel is a myth, it never was a thing and the only reason anyone thought it was was because the entire auto industry w…

It's not fair to call those manufacturers are criminal like VW. VW (Bosch) cheats the emission test deliberately, but some other manufacturers don't cheat but emission is bad when condition is worse than test environment.

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#217

Post by fomine3 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #146
hadlock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Porsche started galvanizing their bodies in the 1970s, VW started in the 1980s, Japan only started galvanizing their bodies in export markets, in response to the germans, and only recently (last 15 years) have been galvanizing all their bodies domestic and import.

>have been galvanizing all their bodies domestic and import. This is because there's basically no market for used cars older than 5 years in Japan https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.picknbuy24.com/amp/column_1...

It's not uncommon to buy used car like newer than 10yo in Japan now. I can see many such cars at the road side used car shop. Because Japanese people especially in rural area (who need car) getting poor relatively, newer cars getting expensive thanks to safety and comfortable equipment, and reliability is improved, used cars getting more reasonable. After 13yo, vehicle tax increases so it's not popular but still sold, especially kei-cars are sold well because it's cheap for tax.

Still, according to this popular used car site, vehicle made in 2002-2011 is listed 109k, 2012-2021 is 319k so newer cars are more sold well. https://www.carsensor.net/usedcar/index.html

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#218

Post by throwaway41597 »

wongarsu wrote: post #42
mattkrause wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those microbes require very specific conditions: precise pH and osmolarity, high temperature (50-70˚C), long contact times, feedstock that's been literally pulverized, etc. These probably aren't going to occur anywhere outside of a bioreactor, so our action figures are likely safe...for now!

With time evolution will widen the conditions, with how much plastic is in the environment. But wood and paper are also readily biodegrade, and yet by simply by controlling the amount of moisture present we manage to make those last a long, long time. In addition we have treatment options to delay decomposition even in wet conditions.

Wood is often protected by plastics. Acrylic wood finish and paint are plastic. Particle boards such as those in many Ikea furniture are covered with a plastic sheet.

If you don't use plastic you need to switch to solutions requiring more maintenance and offering less protection like vegetable oil or pine tar.

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#219

Post by bradfa »

JohnBooty wrote: post #95
bradfa wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So everybody smartened up and now things are much better, to the point that there hardly are cars made that have serious rust issues. I find this entertaining. Come to upstate NY, USA where we liberally salt our roads in the winter. Definitely not "everybody" smartened up as it's still very common to find vehicles here that after 10 years should be declared unsafe to operate due to rust-through of critical structural…

Do aftermarket "anti-rust coatings" actually work? Y'know, the kind people are always trying to sell you at auto dealerships and the like?

Yes if you use a liquid one like Fluid Film. No if you use a “hard” coating like Ziebart.

Re: The Global Cost of Corrosion

#220

Post by s1artibartfast »

fomine3 wrote: post #217
s1artibartfast wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>have been galvanizing all their bodies domestic and import. This is because there's basically no market for used cars older than 5 years in Japan https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.picknbuy24.com/amp/column_1...

It's not uncommon to buy used car like newer than 10yo in Japan now. I can see many such cars at the road side used car shop. Because Japanese people especially in rural area (who need car) getting poor relatively, newer cars getting expensive thanks to safety and comfortable equipment, and reliability is improved, used cars getting more reasonable. After 13yo, vehicle tax increases so it's not popular but still sold…

Is this new in Japan or has it always been the way?
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