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Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

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Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#211

Source is apparently a preprint (that is, not peer-reviewed) uploaded here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.15.22277693v... > Participants: Cross-sectional nationwide survey conducted May 13 to June 2, 2022; participants were adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel. 8,620 respondents, but I don't see how they were recruited or how potential bias was accounted for. Given how weird some of the interne…

In my opinion, the extreme right-wing is building themselves up to begin politicide. For the past year, we've seen daily news stories as Republican extremists don’t just say that Democrats are wrong, but that they are evil. This is a classic authoritarian method of vilifying your opponent both as corrupt and subhuman.

Having just read about the Spanish Civil War, I can see how this will potentially play out.

It will begin with a high profile assassination, then the extreme right will use the protests that will follow as justification for escalating violence, similar to the BLM protests. More violence. Maybe another high profile killing (on either side). Tit-for-tat murders begin, as they have in various government collapses around the world, especially in the 20th century.

The extreme left will undoubtedly respond in various ways beyond protests as tensions grow and the right will use whatever happens as propaganda to enrage their already agitated base. Whacko conspiracy theories and disinformation will make Trump’s term seem like the golden age of truth. Moderate conservatives, moderate liberals and disengaged independents won't know what to believe.

Meanwhile, in Congress, the conservatives who gain control in 2022 will grind the federal government to a halt with hearings and procedural moves. Then they’ll shut down the government with the budget. For months.

While the federal government is incapacitated, there will be a huge right-wing rally in some red state with full-throated attacks on the left. The ramped up crowd will head off afterwards and destroy a bunch of businesses and homes of people they suspect as being “pedophiles”. There will be violence and killings, recorded and shared freely as conservatives celebrate, similar what happens with Kyle Rittenhouse's actions. The state’s governor and local law enforcement will make minimal effort to prevent it and results in no prosecutions, and the fed response will be slow, as usual, and ineffective despite presidential condemnation.

This inspires other big events – full on Nuremberg style rallies – all over the country with similar results. Soon there will be skirmishes in the streets of major cities. The propaganda will be out of control, with front page stories, prime time videos and millions of social media posts filled with dead children and other atrocities, real or imagined.

Then it will really hit the fan when a group of black or Latino protestors attack a group of random white people who they associate with the right-wing. This causes irrational fear among the white population, and seemingly overnight, every other white “liberal” across the country will become suspicious or outright fearful of anyone of color. Mothers will pull their children from schools, or insist on “temporary” segregation for their child’s safety. Who knows what those children of color might do. The violence ramps up as POC communities are targeted, with the justification of “proactive self-defense” Law enforcement does nothing beyond platitudes and Uvalde like responses to shootings. They may even be at the forefront of the effort.

Fast forward and the 2024 election is fucking chaos. The entire right-wing will now accept nothing less than a win in literally every race, and it will be a presidential landslide anyways, because the Republicans are “pro law enforcement”, which, by this time means enforcement targeting mostly people of color and other “potentially dangerous leftists”. Americans have shown the memory of a goldfish and are easily scared. With violence spreading across the country, they’ll react by voting conservative, similar to after 9/11.

Then the right will have full control of all branches of government and start to pass all the laws they want. In addition to their current agenda, they will pass laws which essentially allows legalized vigilantism and an Amendment which cancels presidential term limits and other restrictions. Trump is pardoned.

California and other blue states respond, but the authoritarians in charge this time aren’t as stupid as Trump, learned the lessons he taught about the fragility of our laws, and use the power of the federal government to cripple the left through various voting restrictions intended to remove Democrats. It will all be “legal” and “constitutional” according to the right-wing SCOTUS. Eventually, the Democratic party will be officially declared an illegal organization because of its support for immoral lifestyles. The more the people rebel, the harder the states and feds crack down.

Then, it’s all a matter of rounding up the remaining resistance and the country becomes a de facto authoritarian regime. That’s when politicide turns into policide.

This is all a very probable future. We'll know it's starting with that first assassination. Look for it.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#212
post #114
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voting system in the US (FPTP) is fundamentally unfair. Combine with post-red-map gerrymandering, it is becoming obvious even to the people "on the wings" that our election system fundamentally disenfranchises large swathes of the population. As a short hand, think "Democrats and Independents in red states" and "Republicans and Independants in blue states". Being disenfranchised sucks . The system is designed to…

I dont think the 'system' is designed to be unfair, but instead our two political parties have corrupted the voting process through gerrymandering. Then again, it's not as bad as some people seem to imply it is - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-new-national-congre... . We are talking about a net gain of a seat or two in either direction. If the two parties weren't so dominant this problem wouldn't be nearly…

The problem isn't global representation; it's local fairness. (The 538 analysis is correct in that sense.) The problem is that for any given district, the probability of overturning the gerrymander is, in practice, impossible.

In states with legislatively controlled redistricting (the bulk of them) without controls on the redistricting process, the disenfranchisement is global to everyone — even if you're a blue voter in a blue district, or a red voter in a red district. The person who wins is the incumbent.

For instance, based on ACS and latest CVAP, my district is ~65/35. More importantly, my representative explicitly drew several GOP contenders out of his district to seal his re-election chances. I know he did this, because he had this conversation with Abbot (Governor of Tx) while I was standing a few feet away from them.

The point of a gerrymander is to maintain power, not to have some sort of ideological, or political stance.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#213

Source is apparently a preprint (that is, not peer-reviewed) uploaded here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.15.22277693v... > Participants: Cross-sectional nationwide survey conducted May 13 to June 2, 2022; participants were adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel. 8,620 respondents, but I don't see how they were recruited or how potential bias was accounted for. Given how weird some of the interne…

[deleted]

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#214
9% of Americans say they believe werewolves exist, and 13% are not sure. Numbers are about the same for vampires too. 20% of Americans say they've actually met a ghost.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/entertainment/articles-repor...

28% of Americans say they believe that seeing a shooting star brings good luck.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/jmh49rcs2g/toplines_Luck_and_Sup...

24% of American millennials say they have an actual plan for the zombie apocalypse.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/d7rutytxs2/Zombie-Plans-Data.pdf

The message to take away from this, I hope, is that people who answer these surveys like to troll.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#215

Source is apparently a preprint (that is, not peer-reviewed) uploaded here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.15.22277693v... > Participants: Cross-sectional nationwide survey conducted May 13 to June 2, 2022; participants were adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel. 8,620 respondents, but I don't see how they were recruited or how potential bias was accounted for. Given how weird some of the interne…

> For a reality check, consider that 1/8th of respondents said they would be willing to commit political violence themselves and 7.1% of respondents said they'd be willing to kill someone over politics. God help us. It's almost impressive how biased this sample is. I'm dying to know what else the "Ipsos KnowledgePanel" thinks. Will report back with any eye rollers.

> 7.1% of respondents said they'd be willing to kill someone over politics.

I can only assume it's that low because people tend not to think very hard about poll questions, so are considering only some narrower-than-the-actual-question version of it that they've replaced it with in their heads. Or else a whole lot of people are very honest and don't think they'd be able to actually do it—should, yes, but would? Doubtful enough that they'd answer "no" to the question.

I suspect it's the former because I doubt that many people would be open and introspective enough to admit they don't think they'd have the stomach to do things they think they should do. Try another angle with some extreme but plausible hypothetical scenarios rather than such a general question, and I bet that number shoots way up.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#216
post #141
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not American but I can see how many things have simply gone too far these past years.

Like what? And was it really that different in the past? Often it feels like people don’t have a good historic perspective and think the past didn’t have its difficulties. In reality, there’s probably no year in the past where most of us would have been better off than today. Doesn’t mean that today is perfect, lots of problems to address: housing, income, healthcare, global warming, destruction of the ecosystem, lis…

In the past month, women in large swaths of the United States have lost their right to bodily autonomy, health, and even life. A woman in Wisconsin was forced to carry her dead fetus inside her for ten days because the hospital was afraid to perform an abortion to remove the fetal tissue due to the law from 1849 being unclear about when exceptions are allowed to its complete and total ban even in the case of rape and incest. A ten-year-old girl in Ohio had to cross state lines to get an abortion after being impregnated via rape since their state's 6-week ban does not have an exception for rape. Some hospitals and pharmacists are refusing to fulfill methotrexate prescriptions for lupus because it could be used to abort an ectopic pregnancy (which is definitionally not viable). Women are being denied mifepristone and misoprostol prescriptions to evacuate miscarriages because they could be used to induce an abortion and are instead being forced to carry necrotizing flesh inside their wombs until they hopefully expel it. Cancer patients are being denied chemotherapy because no oncologist will give chemo to a pregnant woman and the doctors in their area are afraid to give these women abortions until their vital signs literally start falling because the so-called exceptions for the life of the mother are so narrow as to open them up to prosecution by a zealous force-birth DA.

And this hasn't even touched on the ground-shaking effect this is going to have on women's ability to participate fully and equally in society.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#217
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't 60% of the population of Texas expected a civil war soon for the last 100 years? And what are those rebel flags all about? It's posturing. Just like all of those surveys that say 50% of tech workers anticipate quitting this year. Nearly all the places that talk about secession are the same states that generate less federal tax revenue than they spend. Which is both why it would be a terrible idea, and why peop…

the whole secession thing blows me away. I live in Texas and had a couple friends who were on that bandwagon. I asked them had they thought about going toe to toe with the US Marines while bombers are over Austin and drones over everywhere else. All i got back was silence. The union will be preserved at any cost, there's precedent for that. No state will secede without defeating the US military first.

just look to Vietnam. The military can occupy but it gets expensive. To win a true war you have to keep the local population happy and bombing them Won't achieve that. Plus you have to think the people in the military are going to be ok bombing local populations and possibly areas they have family. It isn't so cut and dry. I think a break could happen. We are at the end of this empire and the fall is going to be bad.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#218

Not convinced at all that civil war is likely to happen. But then again, I probably would've said the same about Russia invading Ukraine at the start of the year. Part of me thinks this is the result of countless foreign adverserial brainworms slowly trying to push Americans over the edge. Do you have plans if civil war were to break out? The dark part of me thinks it would be interesting to see how a modern civil wa…

No criticism intended. I didn't expect it either. However, anyone following the story probably did expect it. Russia has been in Ukraine since 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War It's not just Ukraine. In 2008 they entered Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#Russo-Georgi...

Even Ukrainians were saying they didn't believe an invasion would happen when US Intelligence was broadcasting Russia's plans to invade in the weeks leading up to it.

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#219
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't 60% of the population of Texas expected a civil war soon for the last 100 years? And what are those rebel flags all about? It's posturing. Just like all of those surveys that say 50% of tech workers anticipate quitting this year. Nearly all the places that talk about secession are the same states that generate less federal tax revenue than they spend. Which is both why it would be a terrible idea, and why peop…

the whole secession thing blows me away. I live in Texas and had a couple friends who were on that bandwagon. I asked them had they thought about going toe to toe with the US Marines while bombers are over Austin and drones over everywhere else. All i got back was silence. The union will be preserved at any cost, there's precedent for that. No state will secede without defeating the US military first.

Does not seem to be a democratic way of handling secession. Makes me wonder why Hong Kong should be free in the view of most westeners, but not Texas...

Re: Half of Americans anticipate a U.S. civil war soon

#220
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voting system in the US (FPTP) is fundamentally unfair. Combine with post-red-map gerrymandering, it is becoming obvious even to the people "on the wings" that our election system fundamentally disenfranchises large swathes of the population. As a short hand, think "Democrats and Independents in red states" and "Republicans and Independants in blue states". Being disenfranchised sucks . The system is designed to…

I agree that this is by far the biggest problem, but I don’t see it leading to a large scale conflict for one reason. The system favors the current political elite. Notice that neither party every really talks about legitimate electoral reform. They talk about voting reform, but not the way our elections actually work. No one is talking about removing fptp, or the electoral college/senate, or moving to a proportional…

Fair voting systems need to be both fair theoretically, but also "obviously fair" to those voting. The vast majority of the electorate is poorly educated on how election system game theory works. (Which should not be surprising.)

I plan to start rolling out fair systems locally (my water district) so that people can familiar with both how easy they're to use; and, more importantly, how they're obviously fair. Right now, we're looking at proportional random selection.

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