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It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

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Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#211

Post by sylware »

1 - vulkan godot backend is not mature yet.

2 - On glibc/linux target: it should generate pure and simple ELF binaries (not C/c++ binaries). It has the following implications:

a - the static libstdc++ from gcc probably has to be forked that to "libdl" everything it needs from the glibc/posix libs.

b - everything else from the system has to be libdl-ed too, even the libc symbols.

c - third party libs must be libdl-ized too.

d - ofc, usage of "-static-libgcc" and "-static-libstdc++" build options to mitigate ABI issues (got hit again by that and recently, c++ ABI nightmare).

e - no C/c++ main() function, only the sysv ABI(ELF) entry point (which is basically main anyway).

f - usage of system TLS variable, like errno, must be handled only via the sysv ABI __tls_get_addr() ABI function (I have to admit, I did not dive that much into this issue yet).

g - proton is a money sink hole, massive and horrible software microsoft grade. To make it worse, it is said to include actual real software components from doz. Only consider it if your technical debt on doz OSes is too high (basically, you started to "think" "other platform ports" too late).

If not mitigating those issues above: games using godot must be build on the oldest glibc as possible, that to avoid GNU symbol versioning issues. They should static link as much as the can, even some glibc libs (libm static linking is mandatory since GNU symbol versions here are madness). And conservatively build using the "-static-libgcc" "-static-libstdc++" options.

rant on: Godot should not have been a c++ engine but a simple C/ASM one (should be able to compile with tcc/cproc/scc/pcc/etc), using the preprocessor for namespaces in order to avoid symbol collision, and using compile-time function tables and runtime function tables (for "fallbacks", like wayland->x11).

The really guilty ppl are actually glibc and gcc devs, not the game devs. rant off.

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#213

Post by eropple »

chii wrote: post #208
TulliusCicero wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Monogame can do it, I don't see why Godot couldn't. Godot clearly wants to compete seriously with Unity at least in the indie game dev space, I don't see how you do that without a decent console solution. The more mature Godot becomes, the weirder it's going to seem that they don't support consoles. I think just doing the minimal amount of cooperation to get SDK's or what have you for consoles would be fine, and v…

why is it only when an engine support console do it mean "serious" competition? An indie game dev may make their game for non-console platforms, and if that game proves to be a hit, a separate development effort could be made to target a console. Or a re-implementation. If console is the first, or only choice, i would argue that the team is not really indie (by which i mean self-funded and small). And who knows - may…

> a separate development effort could be made to target a console. Or a re-implementation

"Could." Sure. Or they "could" use an engine that doesn't require reimplementation to target Where The Market Is.

Which is why, even though people really don't like it much, Unity gets used.

> If console is the first, or only choice, i would argue that the team is not really indie (by which i mean self-funded and small).

This has not been a reasonable statement for at least five years. Indie games don't have lead platforms, but they do, as a matter of practice, need to be on all relevant platforms to have a chance of financial viability. (A grand strategy game might not need to deploy to consoles. Most other stuff really, really does.)

> And who knows - may be godot's popularity would change the way consoles engineer their legal contracts and not hide behind NDAs and secrecy to become more open.

Platform holders do not care about your engine and no indie developers, even en masse, have enough weight to make swing them. EA and Activision might not, at least not in a way that wasn't a special exception just for them, and they move a lot of product by themselves.

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#214

Post by metaltyphoon »

kcb wrote: post #196
kitsunesoba wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with C# has mostly been working on a personal project WinUI desktop app, and my biggest peeve has been reaching for something I use regularly in other languages only to find that it doesn't exist, and the solutions offered up by googling are usually, "well you can write your own implementation", "[huge utility library] offers that", or "don't do that it's not idiomatic/performant/etc". While none of tho…

That's strange because I can't think of a language with a bigger first party library than .NET. The breadth of System. and Microsoft. is enormous.

It's funny because I keep seeing "Go is the gold standard of what a standard library should be", when dotnet dwarfs it by a BIG margin.

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#215

Post by juanuys »

eropple wrote: post #119
Zhyl wrote: post #3

With 4.0 getting more and more advanced features [0] and Unity merging with an Ad company [1], Godot is looking like it could be an attractive proposition for a lot of Unity shops. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32003065 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32081051

Godot is really cool, but a clear and publicly delineated path to console distribution (and not "go talk to these guys", as they currently do) is going to be necessary to get material interest out of most of the gamedev space.

This just published since your comment:

https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-...

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#217

Post by seneca »

strangeattractr wrote: post #194
seneca wrote: post #117

Boy, there sure are a lot of pro-Godot and anti-Unity posts on HN today. Some marketing group is having a fieldday.

So you believe the pro-Godot disposition on here is confected by malicious actors?

No, not at all. It unsurprising that an open source project has positive mindshare. I just think that the spree of articles, all with the same anti-Unity bent, being posted within hours of each other isn't a coincidence.

That doesn't mean people don't genuinely like Godot, just that it looks as if someone has an agenda to make sure that's the case.

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#218

Post by TulliusCicero »

chii wrote: post #208
TulliusCicero wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Monogame can do it, I don't see why Godot couldn't. Godot clearly wants to compete seriously with Unity at least in the indie game dev space, I don't see how you do that without a decent console solution. The more mature Godot becomes, the weirder it's going to seem that they don't support consoles. I think just doing the minimal amount of cooperation to get SDK's or what have you for consoles would be fine, and v…

why is it only when an engine support console do it mean "serious" competition? An indie game dev may make their game for non-console platforms, and if that game proves to be a hit, a separate development effort could be made to target a console. Or a re-implementation. If console is the first, or only choice, i would argue that the team is not really indie (by which i mean self-funded and small). And who knows - may…

This is ahistorical.

Some of the first well known "indie" games were on Xbox live arcade on the 360, like Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Castle Crashers.

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#219

Post by to-too-two »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #178
to-too-two wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the official Godot docs: The reason other consoles are not officially supported are: - To develop for consoles, one must be licensed as a company. As an open source project, Godot does not have such a legal figure. - Console SDKs are secret and covered by non-disclosure agreements. Even if we could get access to them, we could not publish the platform-specific code under an open source license. - Consoles requir…

1. This doesn't seem like a big deal. I'm sure there's some legal-fu you could do here to have a 'company' that's the primary contributor to Godot. Wikipedia has a company of some sort, does it not? And Mozilla's a company. 2. So what? Yes, the console-specific stuff has to be kept secret, that sucks, but it's better than not having support for consoles at all. 3. Okay? Godot isn't just being used by "regular individ…

@TulliusCicero

This was posted earlier today by the Godot team: https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-....

The Reddit discussion regarding the post: https://www.reddit.com/r/godot/comments/vzo8tk/godot_and_con....

Re: It’s time to make that indie C# game in Godot

#220

Post by chii »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #218
chii wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is it only when an engine support console do it mean "serious" competition? An indie game dev may make their game for non-console platforms, and if that game proves to be a hit, a separate development effort could be made to target a console. Or a re-implementation. If console is the first, or only choice, i would argue that the team is not really indie (by which i mean self-funded and small). And who knows - may…

This is ahistorical. Some of the first well known "indie" games were on Xbox live arcade on the 360, like Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Castle Crashers.

super meat boy was first released as a flash game on new grounds. The success there lead to the future release on console and PC (and i recall seeing it was rewritten for these platforms, rather than porting the flash version, but now i can't find a reference).

And while braid is indeed released first on console, there's at least one citation of Blow decrying the process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game)#cite_ref-xb... . Blow likely had no choice at the time because steam (in 2007) wasn't as big a platform as it is today.

I am still of the opinion that console-only releases are not good for indie developers, despite the apparent contradiction of it being more profitable. And the reason Braid had xbox live arcade release is more to do with the industry connection Blow has, rather than the merits of the platform. Even Blow himself initially thought he'd be making a PC release for this game (until the financial side-benefits of xbox arcade back then kicked in).

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