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Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

energy-storage.news

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Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#211

Post by mulmen »

krageon wrote: post #209
Symbiote wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes this is intentional to keep paths clear. Idaho is much colder than Leipzig in winter.

When the sidewalks are melted, it becomes waste heat. The rest of the year, it is waste heat. No matter how cold it is, if you accidentally leak heat it is wasteful - even if the side effect is something you may otherwise want.

Idaho summers are very hot. The district heat only runs part time. It is all waste heat from the power plant. There’s ample hydroelectric and wind power in the region as well. I’m not sure if the plant does demand shifting over the course of seasons but it could only run in winter because it runs on biomass and employs students. Many campus facilities are essentially jobs programs for students. The mission is experiential learning. I got a B.S. in business that included welding.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#212

Post by yellow_lead »

zaxpr wrote: post #200

are we not already running out of sand? https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

We are running out of angular sand, not desert sand. Angular sand can be used for building materials like concrete but desert sand is smooth so doesn't work well for it. For this battery, I would expect either sand would work (but I didn't see any details in the article)

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#213

Post by [deleted] »

thombat wrote: post #165
mulmen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Idaho uses district heat. The pipes run under the sidewalks so the waste heat keeps the sidewalks clear in winter.

By German standards that's still poor insulation. In winter in Leipzig the district heating pipes have snow sitting on them.

[deleted]

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#214

Post by Gravityloss »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #71
konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

Yeah I'd hate having District heating. A friend had this in the past and she couldn't even regulate it. The house was way too hot for her. It would not work for me as I usually have the house around 16 degrees C in winter. Needless to say my energy bill is very low :)

In Finland, which this news article is about, typically in apartments, each radiator has a thermostat so you have very precise control. Also in houses. Further, each building has a heat exchanger.

Offices have multiple thermostats per floor.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#215

Post by edsykes »

killerpopiller wrote: post #185
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have been thinking about getting a solar water heater>heat pump>radiator to warm up my home but the costs just dont make sense because of the heat pump. i am told the life expectancy of a good heatpump is like 10 years, that amount divided by only 10 winters it is expected to see is more than what we currently pay for electricity in winters, accepting that we don't currently have whole house heating, (we rely on pe…

that can't be true. In Germany it is quite a trend now, but they are installed for many years. What I can read in the boards is not that discouraging. Where does this 10 year number come from?

Cost wise it only makes sense if you have photo-voltaic on the roof. In Germany there is more acceptance of paying more if there is a (possibly perceived) environmental benefit.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#216

Post by timeon »

lachstar-x wrote: post #147
karpierz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. If only there was something Russia could do to stay in SWIFT and not be hit by sanctions....

Why stay in SWIFT when it's been demonstrated that they can be cut off from global supply on the whims of the US administration? That one decision did more for the death of the American empire than any other.

Just restate the obvious: Russia has invaded Ukraine.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#217

Post by timeon »

njarboe wrote: post #122
excitom wrote: post #43

> It has a particularly strong use case in Finland which sees long and very cold winters, and was recently cut off from Russian gas supplies over a payments dispute. Well I guess that's one way to characterize war-related sanctions and their side effects.

In a similar vein, I find it quite curious/strange/amazing is that Russian gas has continued to flow through Ukraine during this war. Russia wants the cash and Ukraine does not want to shut off Europe from the gas until Europe does not want the gas to flow. I believe that Russia is still paying Ukraine gas transport fees. Realpolitik in action.

That is nature of things. The spice must flow.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#218

Post by [deleted] »

thombat wrote: post #165
mulmen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Idaho uses district heat. The pipes run under the sidewalks so the waste heat keeps the sidewalks clear in winter.

By German standards that's still poor insulation. In winter in Leipzig the district heating pipes have snow sitting on them.

[deleted]

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#219

Post by mulmen »

thombat wrote: post #165
mulmen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Idaho uses district heat. The pipes run under the sidewalks so the waste heat keeps the sidewalks clear in winter.

By German standards that's still poor insulation. In winter in Leipzig the district heating pipes have snow sitting on them.

Great. How much energy do you spend clearing paths?

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#220

Post by mtrycz2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #156
UkrainianJew wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat keeps leaking out. The amount of stored heat is proportional to the cube of the linear size, the leak rate is proportional to the surface area (square of the linear size). Hence, the bigger the storage, the higher the efficiency. Same why a flea can jump >10x its height, and a human cannot (square growth of strength, cubic growth of weight).

Thanks for the answer. I suppose the answer is a decent insulation on the box. It only has to last for a few hours. Of course, some engineering would have to go into optimizing the size of the rocks and the surface area / mass for the expected use.

So like, sand?
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