“The joy of sharing has been driven from me“ • Hacker News Board

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#211

Post by 4cao » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

djur wrote: post #93

generalk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"continue to blame the customer?" He's never said that folks were wrong, or blamed anyone for anything. Seems to me like he just wanted folks to not be shitty. Take, for example, this comment by someone calling themselves _Proud Retro Fascist_: > Nice attempt at silencing critics. The game will fail because it is > objectively hideous and you will only have yourself to blame. > > Inthe end all you will have achieved…

> All you had to do was make a game with an art style that appeals to everyone, whatever it might be It beggars belief that someone could write this sincerely and not realize how absurd it is. "All you had to do was make something perfect."

I understood it differently, to mean: "All you had to do was make a game with an art style that does not get in the way [of enjoying the game], whatever it might be."

I think this interpretation makes sense, since the original game is primarily story-driven.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#212

Post by bena » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

adamrezich wrote: post #175

bena wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what I did is look up all the Monkey Island games. There are essentially 7. The Secret of, LeChuck's Revenge, The Curse of, Escape from, Tales of, and Special Editions of The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge. And I went look up screenshots of every game. Consistency does not exist. The Secret of and LeChuck's Revenge are pretty similar, The Curse of looks very Dragon's Lair-esque/Don Bluthy, Escape from looks kind…

I agree with everything you've written here 100%, and this is why I actually think the art style they've chosen for this new game is interesting in a tentatively good way, despite me having basically zero grounds upon which to judge art in general. they eschewed the sort of overwrought cartoon whimsy of the later games and Special Editions, and found an art style that allows much of the same level of expression you'd…

I can't recall any real backlash about any of the other games though.

That's the issue. Just about every game looks different, but not until this one do people "care".

It literally has no real basis to base its look off of.

> however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be fully expected.

This here seems to be you talking about consistency. Saying that it doesn't match the older games. Well, which older game should it match? If anything, it not matching any of the older games would be more stylistically appropriate than matching any of the older games.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#213

Post by corrral » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

0x20cowboy wrote: post #210

jjav wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm convinced that junior high and high school, at least in the US, amount to mass child abuse. Like, structurally, that's just what they are, almost unavoidably without totally changing how they work. > Even decent school experiences are, by the standards of the adult world, crazy-bad. Why is that? What is different about US schools? I (nor my spouse) have any experience with US mid & high school but I hear things…

Gangs and guns. I was beat to the ground several times a month all of high school - often by 3 or 4 people. I took care of my friend after having been stabbed at a party. 2 of my friends were killed before I graduated. I’ve been shot at and had guns pulled on me “for fun”. The education was terrible as well, but I don’t blame the teachers or staff. They were doing the best they could.

Outright bad schools in the US are incredibly bad. I had no idea how bad until my spouse substitute-taught at a couple of them, a few years back. Like, fear-for-your-life-every-day bad. Like, there's a 100% chance that at least one kid you're in class with will be in prison for killing a classmate before you graduate. That kind of bad. That's a whole other matter from completely ordinary US schools being a very bad experience, and far more grave. Those places are straight-up misery machines. Shameful monuments to our moral inadequacy.

I think the difference as far as how the problems might be addressed, is that ordinary schools are bad in ways that are basically on purpose, while the worst US schools are bad largely due to catastrophic society-wide failures that aren't really the school's fault, and hardly within their ability to even begin to fix.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#214

Post by AlbertCory » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

rurp wrote: post #171

AlbertCory wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, my life began the morning after I graduated high school. The only people from then whom I'm not in touch with but would like to be, have unsearchable common names and don't sign up for those class reunion websites. (I know, I know, I could find them with more effort. But really, why bother?)

I did not enjoy high school. Others have had it worse, but it was mostly something I had to endure. A teacher in my senior year said something about how some students have the time of their life in high school, while others turn the page after graduating and never look back. Despite being an obvious thought, it kind of blew my mind at the time. The idea that I could choose to have a completely different life as soon…

You were lucky. I wish someone had said that to me.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#215

Post by moolcool » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

proc0 wrote: post #208

chomp wrote: post #14

Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I've seen it on HN also. Someone creates a thing, and then people pour out of the woodwork to lump horrible criticism. No one is asking for blind praise for what they create, but surely there's a middle ground between…

The problem is that the game industry is constantly doing bait and switch, at least for the last decade. They promise a great product, and then the product is mediocre at best and full of shameless monetization. Non-gamers may not understand the difference between a pay-to-win mobile game, and a story-driven RPG action PC game. They're both called "games", but they're in fact different products with different experie…

> The problem is that the game industry is constantly doing bait and switch, at least for the last decade

I don't understand this complaint. Just don't preorder games, and don't buy games before reviews drop.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#216

Post by JJMcJ » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

corrral wrote: post #202

jjav wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm convinced that junior high and high school, at least in the US, amount to mass child abuse. Like, structurally, that's just what they are, almost unavoidably without totally changing how they work. > Even decent school experiences are, by the standards of the adult world, crazy-bad. Why is that? What is different about US schools? I (nor my spouse) have any experience with US mid & high school but I hear things…

- ~8 hours in school per day, often in buildings with minimal natural lighting. During the Winter, this may mean almost no sunlight all day (no recess, like in elementary school). Wanna make people depressed and give them SAD that'll stick with them long after they're adults? Just do this to them for a few years. - Intense workload. We consider it bad when a job takes more than 8 hours a day from you. Schools routine…

Covid has made this even worse, as they are not poorly ventilated disease pits.

I've met homeschooled kids. They are fine. A cousin was Waldorf schooled from K through 12. He's turned out great.

And what you describe is the better schools.

The bad schools are even worse. And the really really bad schools are even worse. People who live near them and can manage either move, or scrape the money to send the kids to Catholic or private schools.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#217

Post by nineteen999 » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #184

corrral wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that junior high and high school, at least in the US, amount to mass child abuse. Like, structurally, that's just what they are , almost unavoidably without totally changing how they work. Even decent school experiences are, by the standards of the adult world, crazy-bad. How many people have anxiety-nightmares for a decade or more after graduating high school? How many unavoidable experiences in life s…

> I'm convinced that junior high and high school, at least in the US, amount to mass child abuse. Like, structurally, that's just what they are, almost unavoidably without totally changing how they work. > Even decent school experiences are, by the standards of the adult world, crazy-bad. Why is that? What is different about US schools? I (nor my spouse) have any experience with US mid & high school but I hear things…

> Why is that? What is different about US schools?

Might be tangential to your point and that of the parent poster, but the threat of gun violence in US schools for a start.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#218

Post by adamrezich » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #212

adamrezich wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you've written here 100%, and this is why I actually think the art style they've chosen for this new game is interesting in a tentatively good way, despite me having basically zero grounds upon which to judge art in general. they eschewed the sort of overwrought cartoon whimsy of the later games and Special Editions, and found an art style that allows much of the same level of expression you'd…

I can't recall any real backlash about any of the other games though. That's the issue. Just about every game looks different, but not until this one do people "care". It literally has no real basis to base its look off of. > however, it should be obvious to anyone that the art style is both a departure from the original games, and their later sequels, and that it's such a stylistic departure that backlash should be…

I never played the old Monkey Island games in their day because for some reason my dad had pretty much the rest of the SCUMM catalog except for Monkey Island and LOOM. but if I understand correctly, the transition to 3D wasn't as criticized because everyone was trying to figure out how to make games look good in 3D at that point, plus Ron Gilbert had left LucasArts at that point in time, so those games weren't as appreciated as the first two. the Remastered version of the first game was certainly met with mixed opinions though.

> Well, which older game should it match?

I already explained that I agree with you that this is the exact problem they faced when coming up with a look for the game. if they had picked any of the different styles, there would have been fans and detractors both. arguably, if they wanted to minimize backlash at the expense of everything else (such as broad marketability), they would have painstakingly recreated the art style of the first two games, with its weird disconnect between the cartoonish character sprites and full-screen realistic-looking closeup shots intact. so they did the almost certainly right thing and figured out a new style. but just because they chose the correct course of action doesn't mean that it wasn't going to frustrate just about everyone who looks at it and says to themselves, "well Monkey Island looks like many different things to be but it doesn't look like that." as a comparative example, see the reaction to the art style of the remaster of The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening. I haven't played it but I think it looks great—much like the Return to Monkey Island art style, it found a way to split the difference in making a new graphical style that still retains some of the "vagueness" of the old, hardware-limited style, while looking unique and good. as you can imagine, even though the Zelda franchise has had its fair share of totally different art styles over the years, there were many people who felt like this particular style doesn't jive with their franchise preconceptions. (I'm kind of at a loss for why I'm fully explaining all of this... this all seems pretty self-evident, for self-evident reasons.)

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#219

Post by the_only_law » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #117

the_only_law wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.

People old enough to have played old Civs but whose brain hasn't developed sufficiently to have switched to Europa Universalis 4 deserve to be pissed.

If I only I could convince my friends to play EU4.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#220

Post by proc0 » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

moolcool wrote: post #215

proc0 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the game industry is constantly doing bait and switch, at least for the last decade. They promise a great product, and then the product is mediocre at best and full of shameless monetization. Non-gamers may not understand the difference between a pay-to-win mobile game, and a story-driven RPG action PC game. They're both called "games", but they're in fact different products with different experie…

> The problem is that the game industry is constantly doing bait and switch, at least for the last decade I don't understand this complaint. Just don't preorder games, and don't buy games before reviews drop.

I'm not complaining, but rather explaining why there is so much controversy with every other title.

People have expectations when companies announce a sequel to something they have already invested in before. That's where the most bait and switch takes place. Companies use the nostalgia as marketing and then blame their core audience, that has contributed to growth of the franchise since the beginning, when it doesn't do as well.

I don't think I've seen a new IP get this criticism. It's usually previously established IPs, and sometimes they're old IP's from decades ago being resurrected because of their initial success, yet they change it up as if that initial success never mattered.