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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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211–220 of 428 posts

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#211

The industrial revolution is in the book, it's the actual antagonist of the story. Tolkien was a devout Catholic distributist and Hobbingen was his ideal Catholic community of self reliant Hobbits who answer to wizards and kings, not to factory floor managers and administrators.

Exactly! Saruman was running industrial revolution of the worst variety, and book ending is about dismantling it in Shire.

Curiously Shire has numerous products that require industrial base, without industrial revolution being present.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o...

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#212
post #126
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Internal warfare is caused by competing for the same resources. Politics is a sufficient condition. Perhaps Sauron would not tolerate 'independent' Orcs he can't use as canon fodder? >Again, the lack of people and trade on Anduin is a shocker for me. Yeah, it's the humans which are hardest to explain away. Some peasants should have thought 'We're tried of paying taxes to Gondor. We'll just move and no one can or wou…

You are giving far too much credit to internal conflict. Trapped between an empire of orcs on one side and those super racist elves on the other side (they certainly do consider humans a lower species, and how could you blame them given the humans' shocking lack of eternal youth), how much internal conflict can you expect? Even the most incompetent dictator wouldn't have a problem getting people to stand together.

Most older Elves regard being able to leave the world as a kindness, given how twisted it has become. The racist ones are either bitter or don't have much life experience.

Elves are not only long-lived, but also bound to Arda. When they die, they rest some time in Mandos' halls and then reincarnate. No matter how twisted and shitty the world becomes, they are stuck with it. No matter the traumas they suffer and the wrongs commited by them, they cannot escape it [the consequences]. Because their victims will be around forever too, and they can't forget either.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#213
LoTR had an industrial revolution. It was called Isengard and people didn’t like how it turned out. Elves were anti technology so there would be downward pressure until they upped and left. Dwarves probably reproduced slowly and were recovering from being orc and dragon chow. Numenorians reproduced slowly and they were also recovering from the plagues and wars. This leaves hobbits who were idyllic. Oh, and the wizards were forbidden to show their abilities.

When the age of men begins, the modern world begins. Tolkien was not interested in writing about that having seen it’s horrors first hand. And as others have written, the population density was very low. Rohan mustered 7-10k riders from the adult male (+1j population.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#214

The reason that Tolkien didn’t write an industrial revolution into the history of middle earth is that he hated industry. Hated how it destroyed bucolic village life. Having this take on LoTR is pointless. Just an annoying waste of time.

> didn’t write an industrial revolution into the history of middle earth

He wrote it, with focus on negative effect - note ending of the book.

Curiously Shire has numerous products that require industrial base, without industrial revolution being present.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalism_in_The_Lord_o...

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#215

> But uh, prehistoric biomass, raises a bit of an issue. We have the entire history of Middle Earth written down and I… didn’t notice the part where Tolkien mentioned dinosaurs? Misconception. Coal doesn't come from dinosaurs; primarily it comes from plants (algae, trees) and plankton. It was formed in the carboniferous period, during which the evolution of plants had preceded the evolution of microbes that were able…

Ah, you missed the author's footnote to your excerpt. > Yes, strictly speaking dinosaurs aren’t needed for coal as coal mostly is made of plant biomass, you fun ruining hack of a pedant. https://featherlessbipeds.substack.com/p/why-didnt-gandalf-o... Commenters beware, the article is filled with such gotchas for the careless reader.

Haha. Granted I didn't check his footnotes, but that's pretty lazy writing, and feels more like he corrected it as an afterthought rather than editing his core text.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there were not many orcs and goblins for a long time in many areas, as we learned from the books. They only came back and multiplied with the slow return-growth of Sauron. Sauron had already returned c1000 TA to Dol Guldur. We're specifically told that evil things, such as Orcs, begin multiplying in number by c1300 TA, which triggers the migration of the Hobbits to the Shire (already we have an example of why t…

Wars and plagues every couple hundred years or so. So what you are saying is that wars and plagues are significantly less frequent then they were in pre-industrial Earth.

No, there was constant low-level warfare for 1600 years which even directly led to the Hobbits fleeing their original home. It’s also for example the reason why the troll-wastes are desolate. The major wars and disasters were on top of that.

It’s 1600 years of an active, organizing intelligence whittling the West away and which saw the _destruction_ of multiple major kingdoms and settlements prior to the beginning of the story. The people of Arnor were nearly exterminated as a result of the Witch-King, for example. These were not wars like medieval wars. They were wars that entailed abject slavery or genocide for the losers.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#218

LoTR had an industrial revolution. It was called Isengard and people didn’t like how it turned out. Elves were anti technology so there would be downward pressure until they upped and left. Dwarves probably reproduced slowly and were recovering from being orc and dragon chow. Numenorians reproduced slowly and they were also recovering from the plagues and wars. This leaves hobbits who were idyllic. Oh, and the wizard…

> Elves were anti technology

Depends on how you define it, they had no problem with metallurgy, cloth-making (with properties better than high-teach real world clothes and considered as magic by outsiders), advanced food processing, excellent weaponry, shipbuilding and so on...

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#220
For someone who hates the Lord of the Rings, that's surprisingly well researched. And yet, a lot of his reasoning doesn't make sense. Because population levels in Middle Earth are far lower than in 18th century England, labour costs should be high?

Population levels in Middle Earth strike me as closer to those of Siberia or the eastern European steppe (perhaps with the Ural in the role of the Misty Mountains?) than to those of western Europe. And I think everybody agrees that Siberia was never going to be a good spot for the industrial revolution to start.

To have high labour costs, you need high productivity; you need industry. Most of the industry in Middle Earth seems to be involved in making weapons and jewelry, and not much else. To have high inventiveness, you need a lot of people. I suppose the industrial revolution could start in England because it was both fairly densely populated, but also highly productive. Perhaps because they had the trade network to sell their goods all over the world?

There doesn't seem to be much trade in Middle Earth. There barely are any cities! I mean, Gondor seems to be by far the largest and richest country, and what cities do they have beyond Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and Erech? The rest of Middle Earth seems to be almost completely empty. The various travelling groups would frequently walk for days without encountering any farms or villages.

I don't know why Middle Earth is so empty, but given that it is, it seems like a very unlikely place for the industrial revolution to take place.

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