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Webcams aren't good enough

reincubate.com

211–220 of 610 posts

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current apartment has no south windows. The previous unit had none east. Before that, no north. Before that, no south or north windows. "Just" fixing some problems can be a luxury.

> "Just" fixing some problems can be a luxury It really needn't be. (Proper) photographers have been dealing with these very same issues for longer than we've all been worrying about how we look on Zoom. Window Light: The Biggest, Bestest Softbox You Already Own : "Let’s say your windows are west-facing and you want to shoot in the afternoon. And you’re really terrified of hard light. Keep thinking of your window as…

Which is a great option, at least if you can plan your Zoom meetings by the correct time for ideal sunlight!

Unfortunately, this isn't the case for most people.

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#212
post #171

I'm the cofounder at Lumina - we're building a modern webcam designed to solve some of these problems. There's really been a lack of innovation in the entire home office space, with the webcam being particularly bad. It sucks that a decade-old product (Logitech C920) is still the bestselling product today -- that would be like if Apple stopped releasing new phones after the iPhone 4S (launched 2012), and it remained…

I bought a Lumina in December. It still doesn't do automatic tuning of the video. Everything requires manual adjustment. I can't just have it...work. It requires tons of adjustments. It even ships with a color card, which I assume is to automatically tune things, but it fails miserably. I have tried tuning it a dozen times, but maybe I can get it right until the light changes (I am by windows). Finally, after about 5-6 months of giving leeway, I gave up and uninstalled everything, put it in a box in my attic, and went with a 5 year old webcam that doesn't look amazing but doesn't look bad.

I have noticed you keep shipping a bunch of random features. I could be wrong, but my recommendation is to try and get it to automatically work right for 99% of cases without manual user input.

(Note I'm on M1 MBA)

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#213
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> good enough for their purpose which is video conferencing As a hard of hearing person, the main reason I'd bother to video conference is so I can see a person's lips to understand them better. The vast majority of practical set-ups do not presently make that possible. Some are so bad with the compression and framerate that sign language gets substantially garbled, too.

You probably know of this already, but in some software you can have speech to text live subtitles. I hate to advertise for Google but their Meet thing is the only one where I know this exists. The quality is slightly worse than their YouTube auto-subtitles (and even those are worse than my own hearing as a non-native listener), though perhaps that's because the input is also worse and it needs to be realtime? Not su…

As others have mentioned, Microsoft Teams also has an auto-generated Live Captions feature. It supports creating live captions for a number of spoken languages [0].

Zoom also has the feature, they call it Live Transcription [1].

While such features can be helpful, using them is rather different than lip reading, particularly while you're in a conversation.

[0] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/use-live-captions...

[1] https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/207279736-Managing...

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#214
post #171

I'm the cofounder at Lumina - we're building a modern webcam designed to solve some of these problems. There's really been a lack of innovation in the entire home office space, with the webcam being particularly bad. It sucks that a decade-old product (Logitech C920) is still the bestselling product today -- that would be like if Apple stopped releasing new phones after the iPhone 4S (launched 2012), and it remained…

It does seem like a very underserved niche, I hope your product works out! Looking for such a cam myself, will give you a good look.

Do you do AI and image processing on the camera, or on the host system like Logitech/Razer?

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the article is that even a shitty old cell phone handily beats a "mid-range" C920 webcam. Yes, lighting conditions are important to photography, but, as the author demonstrates, cell phone cameras are better even in those scenarios. Furthermore, if you live in northern latitudes you get very little sunlight during the winter so a "window" is not a sufficient solution.

> Furthermore, if you live in northern latitudes you get very little sunlight during the winter so a "window" is not a sufficient solution Perhaps I wasn't clear: a North-facing window never gets direct sunlight, but doesn't matter because we're after neutral, even light . Certainly not "direct light", not even "lots of light". Just neutral, even light. It's worked for artists for centuries.

At my latitude I'll lose sunlight at 2pm in the middle of winter. I can fix the webcam, I can't fix how much sunlight is available in my locale.

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#216
post #171

I'm the cofounder at Lumina - we're building a modern webcam designed to solve some of these problems. There's really been a lack of innovation in the entire home office space, with the webcam being particularly bad. It sucks that a decade-old product (Logitech C920) is still the bestselling product today -- that would be like if Apple stopped releasing new phones after the iPhone 4S (launched 2012), and it remained…

First, I like what Lumina is trying to do. I pre-ordered, and since receiving the first batch, have been, and will keep, buying them.

However, caveat emptor. Right now, buyers should support Lumina to support innovation in this space, but be prepared to pay a quality price while they work on it. Several ideas didn’t work out, and they’re trying to correct. Each software release is better, but I worry the hardware sensor in the shipping models may just not be up to task.

I have four Brio and four Lumina in our office (several more just came!). LogiTune + Brio 4K is surprisingly (given Lumina marketing including the post above) better than Lumina in most every situation, and drastically better in high contrast lighting where Lumina shows severe washouts and color banding. Some of the article’s shots show washed out yellowing on the author’s face. Make that problem worse, and you can picture what Lumina is struggling with in some lighting. It’s probably good that he didn’t do a comparison yet, though I would note that the most recent software release might have done better than 75% of those tested in his particular setting.

Meanwhile, if you like Lumina’s features but want better video, Logitech Brio 4K + Xsplit Vcam gives the same “virtual cameraman” pan and zoom, bokeh background softness control, virtual green screen, logo/watermarks, and more. Just like Lumina that requires a separate app for “pro” mode (aka software processed), Brio 4K (also most any webcam works) requires Xsplit Vcam to enable those features.

With Lumina the extra app is just enough easier for non-tech users to remember, that’s the direction I’m leaning for our staff.

Going forward, I’d pay 2x the Lumina price for (a) large aperture and high dynamic range sensor running off USB-C, and another 50% for configurable onboard features like the pan and zoom that wouldn’t require a helper app and confusing settings in Zoom, Teams, etc.

It’s certainly possible within the price point. What I likely want is something like this on USB-C:

https://store.ui.com/collections/unifi-protect-cameras/produ...

The quality on this 4K sensor + lens array is remarkable, the optical tele-zoom fantastic, the low light gathering shockingly good. The price point includes a full PoE camera engine and an audio mic.

True, so that wouldn’t fit in a laptop bag. But iPhone optics would fit easily in a Brio housing, and long throw zoom would fit in the Streamcam form factor. Given videoconf is now a fact of work, I’d argue innovators should not be afraid of a larger device to achieve better quality.

Like the author of this article, while I used to use a Sony A9 for web conferences that matter, now I use iPhone + Camo for high value teleconfs. It doesn’t have to fit in my bag, I’m already carrying it. The innovation needed here is for the mount.

All this said, Lumina’s software is iterating fast, their cameraman is easy and works well, and I am buying more of the Lumina over the Brio for our staff.

// @rlei: a few usability notes (1) give us a toggle to turn off the default background image (e.g., show black instead) while virtual camera is panning in, the default scene generates annoyed comments from participants, (2) don’t flip from black to the live image until the initial pan and zoom is done, and (3) consider offering an eye-contact filter and marketing that. Staff who prefer Brio affirm they would switch just for that. Also, (4), don’t make users search email to find a serial number to use the helper software with their Lumina camera.

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#217
post #131
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's simple math. To hold the camera housing of an iPhone camera the thickness has to go up which means the entire top lid needs to become thicker. This will easily double the weight of the laptop.

The simple math tells me the volume of material is not double.m when you make the lid thicker. Not sure what you're about, it doesn't make sense.

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#219

This made me laugh. > Using an iPhone as a webcam is easily the best option without dropping an excess of $1,000 for professional camera gear. Using the iPhone you already own, or a recent hand-me-down, a moderate investment in lighting, and Reincubate Camo, you can get excellent results and none of the frustration and hassle that accompanies standalone webcams. I don't have an iPhone. So if I want to buy one that is…

> I don't have an iPhone. So if I want to buy one that is better than any of the webcams reviewed, I'm spending a couple hundred bucks at least. T

To be fair, he reviewed an iPhone so he recommended that. I think the advice is really more like "use the existing high powered camera you have in your pocket".

Re: Webcams aren't good enough

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think this is actually true. We stream high definition video regularly nowadays. It's not a question of resolution, but of other qualities of the recording, the way differences in lighting is handled etc. Those imperfections are not smoothed away by compression.

To your point, I've seen some modern webcams accentuate extremely minor facial blemishes to the point where observers actually notice it and call it out, concerned that the person is sick or has had some sort shaving incident. I would think compression would make that even worse.

Mine does this. It makes me look drunk. People who met me in real life after lockdown were surprised I looked normal. I keep meaning to find some software that will turn the red down.
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