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Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

forbes.com

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Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#211

Post by DannyBee »

bmelton wrote: post #61
DannyBee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and then the law would get struck down because, as said, washington state isn't allowed to regulate interstate commerce.

Nit to pick: States can and do regulate interstate commerce all the time. California once banned the import of foie gras into the state, and IIRC are planning a law banning the import of foreign oil. Some states ban the import of firearms they don't wish to exist. Whether they should be allowed to engage in the regulation of interstate commerce for activities that occur entirely extra-state is probably more along wha…

Yes, that is fair.

They can even regulate interstate commerce in ways that discriminate between in and out of state companies (IE something that seems a very clear commerce clause violation), though this is historically limited mostly to alcohol shipment :)

Honestly, though, the current SC seems much more likely to strike that all down than they have in the past, and give much brighter lines.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#212

Post by throwaway09223 »

jeromegv wrote: post #208
throwaway09223 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Activision-Blizzard's board get 350k. If they earned $0 instead, this would only give each employee an extra $35 per year. That's including their stock compensation. As you say, most goes to investors. Which makes sense as they actually own the company.

OP was talking about executives (CEO, VPs), not board.

I am OP's OP and I was talking about the board.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#213

Post by yieldcrv »

willcipriano wrote: post #187
yieldcrv wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, state level would have no jurisdiction over the criminal action and feds arent caring right now, but focusing on the state level you can also just form a branch So you go online and fill out an LLC for another state, and just say you are licensing your brand name to that LLC in another state that is doing all the sales in that state

"Your honor, this man, doing business as "weed.com", collected the proceeds from four thousand individual sales of marijuana from his office at 123 Fake Street." It's illegal to do that. What's the defense, it's legal to do that somewhere else? That part of the justice system doesn't play around. There are people in jail for felony murder for selling the baggies to the guy who sold the drugs to the guy who overdosed.

It’s legal to license a brand name to an organization in another state

Thats the only action that occurred in the state

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#214

Post by brianwawok »

psyc wrote: post #57
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #43

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make…

Internally, salary ranges at MS are quite narrow by job and level. Particularly since they're more compressed toward zero than at the FAANGs and Unicorns. Why would they invite trouble by not simply publishing those?

Is this for like a level 6 dev?

Will someone applyling know if they are a level 4 or a level 7 dev? How?

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#215

Post by kriops »

cogman10 wrote: post #199
drewcon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life. If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

You say this as if companies don't chose where to have their offices and their attendance policies. If a company places it's headquarters in a HCOL area and requires everyone come in 5 days a week, then yes, they have a responsibility to pay a salary high enough that their employees can survive there. If employers don't like the fact that COL is too high, THEY can go ahead and march on city hall to advocate for polit…

Supply and demand. COL is a downstream price signal as far as a rational employer is concerned. While they might try to influence it to alter the supply of potential workers in their favor, it is by no means their responsibility to do so.

And saying companies choose where the highest concentration of available talent resides is dishonest.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#216

Post by pnw »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #148
TulliusCicero wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since their largest workforce is in Washington state, it's probably just less risky to make this their overall US policy. Making a different policy for HQ vs everywhere else could easily lead to mistakes and accidentally breaking the law.

It can't be that hard to follow this law in specific places. This is a meaningful policy decision, not just following risk.

There will be an army of lawyers trying to monetize any errors by companies, since the WA bill 5761 allows a job applicant to sue for potential lost wages plus interest. Microsoft is just getting ahead of the lawsuit curve.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#217

Post by rootusrootus »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #43

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make…

I tend to assume that, at best, a company advertising a range of X-Y is going to offer something around (X+Y)/2. So if you tell me some ridiculous range, I'm going to assume your offer will suck, and I'll just skip it.

Everyone is better served by accurate ranges, it avoids both sides wasting time because of mismatched expectations.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#218

Post by pnemonic »

drewcon wrote: post #181
kodah wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life. If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

Companies are responsible at an individual level for understanding the state of the environment they chose to do business in. You seem to be implying that people in the Bay Area are just bad with money and if they weren't, this wouldn't be a problem.

Some day soon, hopefully, companies that fail to do this will fail to stay in business.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#219

Post by pnw »

com2kid wrote: post #156
JamesSwift wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. If more start to do it, it becomes an arms race. If a company is loading the compensation in other ways and coming in light on salary then their job posting becomes much less compelling for job seekers. So they have a choice: disclose the other compensation (in order to compete with the salary numbers of the other companies) or adjust their compensation to be heavier on salary so their numbers are in line…

I'm sad more companies don't up their 401k contributions, most people don't realize their employer can put in 40k a year (!!!) into an employee's 401k. Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash, and that isn't counting the earnings or the flexibility to reallocate 401k investments w/o having to pay taxes on earnings when changing where the money is invested.

If Microsoft put 40k a year into everyone’s 401k they would immediately trip the Highly Compensated Employee test and have the IRS breathing down their necks.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#220

Post by KingMachiavelli »

_fat_santa wrote: post #63
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #43

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make…

I live in CO and we recently had a similar law pass that required companies to disclose salary ranges. Like you said it does absolutely nothing, companies will list "Senior Software Engineer" with a salary of "$70k - $240k". This often times isn't even the range for the current position, but the "entire range" of offers they extend to any level of SWE.

Even if the range is too large it is still extremely useful; it shows the company doesn't want to post a meaningful salary range which means salaries offered will be in the lower portion. Companies that are prepared to offer a competitive salary have every incentive to make the lower number higher than their competitor's listings.
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