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PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

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Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#211

Post by [deleted] »

uberman wrote: post #206
colinmhayes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities aren't actually providing a service to the phd candidates though. The candidates are providing a service to the university. No one would get a phd if they had to pay tuition.

As a university employee with a spouse who is tenured faculty I can assure you that phd candidates are not a net positive work wise from an institutional perspective. The good part is that you can usually rely on a phd candidate to produce the work they have been assigned. Masters candidates, you have a 50/50 shot of being assigned someone who will produce anything of value. All you need to do to verify this is to lo…

[deleted]

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#212

Post by uberman »

brtkdotse wrote: post #192
engineeringwoke wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing education isn't expensive; big campuses and teams of administrators are. Universities could easily return to the old ways, just cap annual loans at $20k per head. It would be painful, but they're fat, and what they're doing is bad for society.

Not to mention sports teams.

You don't understand university sports revenues and expenses.

Feel free to download a breakdown of revenues and expenses for the university of your choice at: https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

You are going to find that almost every school is net neutral with respect to their sports programs. Football and basketball typically funding all other sports.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#213

Post by colinmhayes »

uberman wrote: post #206
colinmhayes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities aren't actually providing a service to the phd candidates though. The candidates are providing a service to the university. No one would get a phd if they had to pay tuition.

As a university employee with a spouse who is tenured faculty I can assure you that phd candidates are not a net positive work wise from an institutional perspective. The good part is that you can usually rely on a phd candidate to produce the work they have been assigned. Masters candidates, you have a 50/50 shot of being assigned someone who will produce anything of value. All you need to do to verify this is to lo…

> Everyone pays to get a phd.

The question is only how much. Universities would be paying $0 if they could. Turns out they can't. If candidates tax bill goes up $10k universities would have to increase the stipend by that much. No one works for free. People pay for undergrad because it increases earning potential by huge amounts, a phd isn't really the same. Those candidates could easily get jobs if they wanted.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#214

Post by uberman »

voxl wrote: post #175
uberman wrote: post #39

While I agree that PhD students don't get enough cash on a weekly basis to get buy, they are certainly compensated well above what is quoted in the article. International PhD students by law cannot work more than 20 hours a week. Most institutions cap paid responsibilities at 20 hours a week. Most have 9 month appointments, most likely get the full cost of their tuition and fees waved. Most of the time waved costs su…

Thinking in this way has always been very toxic. Some professors think this way and will accidentally state how PhD students are overpaid and underworked... Any sane analysis would note that PhDs are valid added to society, we want PhDs, and pipelines into industry for them. Using your analysis there would never be another PhD student.

Your reaction is understandable but you lack a larger perspective. I have never argued that society does not benefit from PhDs only that when talking about compensation one must include all the factors.

Would you accept a job offer before considering the benefits package? I would certainly not.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#215

Post by musicale »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16
tombert wrote: post #7

It's a bit of a shame that the US doesn't really allow part time PhDs (at least not in any of the schools that I asked). If they did, conceivably a lot of these students could get a relatively well-paying job in engineering or a lab or something, and as such the schools could get away with paying less. Part of the reason that I didn't bother trying to pursue the CUNY PhD in mathematics was specifically because the st…

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

> These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant tax benefits), so where is the money even going?

1. Non-teaching admin positions, like vice presidents and associate deans of whatever, and all of their organizations and support staff.

2. Large bureaucracies that eat money and grow continuously.

3. Country club campuses and amenities.

4. Student services.

5. Legal departments and regulatory compliance.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#216

Post by confidantlake »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16
tombert wrote: post #7

It's a bit of a shame that the US doesn't really allow part time PhDs (at least not in any of the schools that I asked). If they did, conceivably a lot of these students could get a relatively well-paying job in engineering or a lab or something, and as such the schools could get away with paying less. Part of the reason that I didn't bother trying to pursue the CUNY PhD in mathematics was specifically because the st…

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

Going to admins getting paid high 6 figure or sometimes even 7 figure salaries.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#217

Post by musicale »

BeetleB wrote: post #64
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

Typical culprits: - Too much admin per student compared to 40 years ago - (Much more likely): Severe decline in funds from the state. I know at least one nearby university that showed the data that the increase in tuition from 1980 to 2010 was almost entirely due to government cuts, and that the budget spending per student hadn't changed in that time frame - adjusted for inflation. - Fancy buildings

> - (Much more likely): Severe decline in funds from the state. I know at least one nearby university that showed the data that the increase in tuition from 1980 to 2010 was almost entirely due to government cuts, and that the budget spending per student hadn't changed in that time frame - adjusted for inflation

This may be a good explanation for public institutions, but what is the justification for private institutions?

For example, a year at the University of Pennsylvania (a private university) in 1980 cost about $7200 (equivalent to $25K today), but Penn currently charges about $75K per year.

What is the justification for the additional tripling of charges, even after adjusting for inflation?

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#218

Post by mbauman »

uberman wrote: post #209
andreyk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the main thing PhDs do aside from doing RA/TA is taking classes, you don't understand what a PhD involves that well...

I work at an elite tier 1 research university that is an international household name. My spouse is a tenured faculty member who runs a lab and several concurrent DoD funded grants. I understand perfectly well what a phd candidate does and what they are compensated for as well as what their fully loaded costs are. If you believe that the cost of a phd student is 18k a year, it is you who does not understand what work…

This is a silly take. The "true" cost of an employee is _always_ higher than their salary. Often by 50-100%.

Your argument here is like saying the minimum wage needn't be increased because the "true" cost of an employee is already $15/hr. They should be grateful for those administrative costs! And doubly so that we don't tax them!

TFA is literally about the take-home cash.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#219

Post by musicale »

dlsa wrote: post #140
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

No idea. But aren't those campuses wonderful with their huge buildings, new carpet, great landscaping, and every admin staff member has an amazing office chair and fitout. They even refresh that carpet every year along with brand new seating. The art! Its always changing as well. The university cars are great too. I've seen plenty of amazing cars that researchers drive around. The libraries are constantly changing ea…

It may be an interesting exercise to divide the non-teaching administrative budget by the number of students.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#220

Post by flaviut »

uberman wrote: post #212
brtkdotse wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention sports teams.

You don't understand university sports revenues and expenses. Feel free to download a breakdown of revenues and expenses for the university of your choice at: https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/ You are going to find that almost every school is net neutral with respect to their sports programs. Football and basketball typically funding all other sports.

I haven't looked at the entire dataset, but looking at the major schools that are close to me:

Expenses: 12M, 25M, 13M, 70M

Revenue: 6M, 30M, 13M, 44M

1/4 is making a slight profit. 1/4 is breaking even. 2/4 are making a major loss.

A Kennesaw State University (00157700 )| Total Enrollment: 27,300

B Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus | Total Enrollment: 14,476

C Georgia State University | Total Enrollment: 22,276

D University of Georgia | Total Enrollment: 27,877

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