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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

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211–220 of 248 posts

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to be fair to t-3, they seem to have some real focus on the Chihuahan and Sonoran deserts, and I suspect that things may indeed have been a little different there than the areas occupied by the Tewa/Pueblo peoples and even the Hopi.

I think you're being generous. "American west" covers a lot of area. The idea that the people there 'lacked resources for widespread access to fire' is preposterous. And t-3's own example shows the Jumanos 'developed a high skill in tanning buffalo and deer hides from which they made clothing and moccasins', the and the Mansos women 'cover themselves from the waist down with two deerskins', so definitely with access…

The only recent human population that lacked fire was the Tasmanians. They of course had fire when Tasmania was still connected to Australia, but lost the secret, probably in some catastrophe that wiped out hereditary fire-keepers.

Tasmanians were almost exterminated by British occupiers conducting safaris.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#212
post #117
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artifacts are not history, they are items. The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. I said that they lacked the trappings of what present-day humans think of as civilization, not that they didn't exist or have civilization, which I know they did - but they died out due to drought. Much of the time, they lacked resources for widespread acce…

>The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc . The history was lost because the Spaniards burned all the books, with the exception of stuff that was never written down in the first place. The Romans did plenty of genocide and forced integration but we didn't lose the history of their predecessors because they…

Most American cultures were wiped out largely by smallpox, measles and other Eurasian diseases before the Spanish got around to most places.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#213

and yet people still waste the perfectly fine drinkable water on their lawns, most of them frontyard which don’t have even any actual use beyond “looks nice”. Unbelievable!

I agree that's silly, IMO, but it's a deck chair on the Titanic.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#214
post #174
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true in California due to the state water project. Water is captured in NorCal and shipped to SoCal for agriculture. Central Valley farmers directly reduce the water for SV suburbs. The only river they haven't tapped is the Klamath.

They're not all interconnected though. For example, where I live most water comes from Hetch Hetchy, which is not connected to the central CA agricultural water delivery projects.

In case anyone is curious, the Tuolumne "river was dammed at Don Pedro and Hetch Hetchy to provide water for Central Valley farmers and the city of San Francisco, respectively". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuolumne_River

It appears that one ~half of the Tuolumne is diverted for Central Valley agriculture and one ~sixth is diverted to San Francisco.

To be explicit, water from the Hetch Hetchy reservoir/valley flows to central California agriculture by not being diverted to San Francisco (via the Hetch Hetchy Aqueduct), instead continuing to flow as the Tuolumne river until being dammed by the New Don Pedro Dam, then eventually released by that dam until again hitting the La Grange Dam, from there possibly being diverted into the Turlock Irrigation District main canal.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution is to work together as a tribe, not as individuals. Agreed. It's not about continuing our way of life and maintaining the same mentality, but with alternative tech. The fix for this requires leadership and cooperation and significant culture shift. At a global level. Unfortunately we're not even close to where we need to be socially or diplomatically. And yes, those who are least able to affect change,…

Surely most here have seen and read enough dystopian sci-fi to understand how bad it can get before the wealthy & powerful feel the pain or are encouraged to do anything about it. I don’t expect this situation to change until it’s more profitable to do the right thing. Capitalism + game theory all the way down. Unfortunately, the governments that can make a dent in this are heavily lobbied by the same industries they…

I don't think there are places where this farming makes more sense. Just because a place is green doesn't make it an ideal farmland.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a desert Why do so many people choose to live in a desert? It makes very little economic sense. Feels like it will be destined for failure no matter what silicon valley tries to pay its grunts. Any expectation of having enough water for such a low price is laughably absurd. The population of this state is literally asking for these conditions - they are choosing to live there.

It's nice living where there aren't any mosquitoes or humidity.

Right, but then you're also living without plentiful growth - without lots of pollination. That's part of what not having water is. That's the current plight of California, Arizona, and New Mexico.

Florida has plenty of humidity, and when I lived there I got on just fine.

I live in rural TN today - same deal. It rains all the damn time, mosquitoes everywhere. We have a service come once a quarter that takes care of them. I don't have cancer as a result. I capture so much rain water and filter it down and use it for productive purposes, I live on 15 acres and pay $25 for my water.

I saw some other people make reference to subsidizing folks in rural areas, but that's simply not the case. We use our water and conserve it unlike any suburban areas do, we don't spare a drop. And we pay the same rates as everyone else in the state.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a desert Why do so many people choose to live in a desert? It makes very little economic sense. Feels like it will be destined for failure no matter what silicon valley tries to pay its grunts. Any expectation of having enough water for such a low price is laughably absurd. The population of this state is literally asking for these conditions - they are choosing to live there.

Desert is more sensible place for urban humans than using productive land for buildings and roads.

Live on your own productive land and use sensible automation to make it manageable.

We live in the 21st century. What is wrong with everybody?

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water bottling is a red herring, that one arrowhead bottling facility in california that everyone likes to blame for water shortages uses the same amount of water in one year as a similar sized alfafa farm.

Except there’s not one water bottling plant. There’s multiple Arrowhead bottling plants, Crystal Lake’s plant, a few Nestle Pure Life, Dasani, Aquafina, etc. In fact, a simple Google search would have told you that there are over 110 of them: https://money.cnn.com/2015/05/26/news/companies/california-b... And while the amount they bottle is a drop compared to Ag, their total bottling amount equals the total residenti…

> their total bottling amount equals the total residential (which includes municipal) water usage in the state

From the article you linked

"The International Bottled Water Association says that about 3.1 billion gallons of water are bottled in California annually. Nestle, for example, uses 725 million gallons of water annually at its California bottling plants.

But that volume is dwarfed by the 4 trillion, (with a "t,") gallons used by residents every year."

So those 110 companies combined use 0.00077 of the water residents use each year, and likely pays the same per gallon as other ag and industrial consumers, and this is considered a problem worthy of attention?

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#219
post #212
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc . The history was lost because the Spaniards burned all the books, with the exception of stuff that was never written down in the first place. The Romans did plenty of genocide and forced integration but we didn't lose the history of their predecessors because they…

Most American cultures were wiped out largely by smallpox, measles and other Eurasian diseases before the Spanish got around to most places.

I'd be careful with language like this. My impression is that "they were wiped out by smallpox" is the sort of thing that infuriates native Americans, because it is implies that their cultures were destroyed, a claim they very much dispute. Yes, populations were massively reduced by european diseases, but in most cases (all? I don't know) it did not wipe out the cultures. It have a dramatic impact on them, and did set the stage, of course, for the subsequently arriving colonialists to attempt to continue the process in person (with varying degrees of success).

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#220
post #177
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artifacts are not history, they are items. The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. I said that they lacked the trappings of what present-day humans think of as civilization, not that they didn't exist or have civilization, which I know they did - but they died out due to drought. Much of the time, they lacked resources for widespread acce…

While you're correct about the native people often living as nomads and lacking clothing or permanent structures, it's worth clarifying the "genocide" claim which is a source of mass misunderstanding about American history. To be clear- many indigenous groups lived as distinct tribes for decades or centuries which then disappeared, but essentially none of them were due to direct contact with immigrants from Europe. D…

> Disease, drought, inter-tribal warfare wiped out the vast majority.

To be clear, disease was by far the biggest factor.

To be even more clear, diseases introduced via Europeans. Wikipedia's list includes "smallpox, bubonic plague, chickenpox, cholera, the common cold, diphtheria, influenza, malaria, measles, scarlet fever, sexually transmitted diseases (with the possible exception of syphilis), typhoid, typhus, tuberculosis (although a form of this infection existed in South America prior to contact),[4] and pertussis" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_ep...

European colonization was significantly easier because something like 50-90% of the population was gone, 1) causing Europeans to think the land was 'virgin wilderness', with no strong indigenous land claim 2) making it easier for Europeans to conquer the local population, and 3) leaving improved lands that were easier to settle.

> led to much higher death rates when groups clashed

Do you have any numbers putting those rates into perspective? What I've found says it's a relatively small factor.

> The narrative of European immigrants wiping out the tribal groups is mostly a modern fiction

I have no idea of what are you talking about.

The California genocide isn't a modern fiction. The forced relocations and ethnic cleansings of the "Five Civilized Tribes" isn't a modern fiction. The "Battle" at Wounded Knee was a US fiction about a massacre.

I don't even see how this "whataboutism" is supposed to work. US government policy was directly based on white supremacy. It ended up with horrific consequences. We teach those as bad things. So that makes similar contemporary abuses good? Somehow? How?

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