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Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#211
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have US hospitals ever had transparent pricing? This seems like the root of the problem, and insurance seems like what "fixes" that but causes tons of downstream unwanted side-effects.

It’s always astonishing how I can get a fully itemized vet bill right after a visit and pay for it. Meanwhile going to the hospital is like “well gee, let’s submit to insurance, see what they’ll pay, we’ll readjust prices and then come back to you in a few months.”

Months after my last real procedure in a hospital, even after the insurance was settled, I could not get them to tell me how much money I owed them. Even when I went in person and told them "I want to pay you all of the money right now" they just shrugged their shoulders and told me they didn't know how much I owed them.

They just sent me a bunch of small bills in the mail one at a time and had a text field online where I could blindly pay them without indicating whether or not I had completed my payments.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#212
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

Insurance is the only industry where they agree to pay for something (in this case, "medical care"), but then after service has been rendered can decide to pay less, or not pay at all, or stop paying that provider altogether, etc. This combined with hospitals being run by non-physicians*, and people thinking being able to Google and read WebMD qualifies them to argue with their doctor about treatment plans**, healthc…

> * In stark contrast to asking questions and trying to understand. But I have family members who are the "look everything up and then try to tell my doctor how they're going to treat me" ilk and it's crazy.

I still think it’s better than the other extreme of just showing up and trusting the professionals. That should work in theory, but my experience for myself and those around me is it’s incredibly ineffective. If what you’re dealing with requires the least bit of thought, odds are you’re getting brushed off to the extent you allow.

The real model of US healthcare is essentially apprentice/master, with the patient as apprentice. Apprentice does a lot of the work, not all, some needs to be approved by the master and the apprentice better know how to learn from the master, when to push back, and how to make it seem like it was their idea all along. You can imagine how this falls apart for mental health.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#213
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most industries are neither tasked with restoring health nor with being the bearer of hard truths about a person's health. I think it stands to reason that healthcare can be a particularly toxic environment for those reasons.

Half of the toxic problem is from the people being treated. The other half (and sometimes more than half) is from management and co-workers (i.e. doctors). Not all doctors are bad but enough of them are to make an impact. There's a culture problem there.

Absolutely. In case it wasn't clear: I was saying that just dealing with peoples' health makes for a fundamentally stressful and potentially toxic environment, even if each individual in question is perfectly kind and reasonable.

Mistreatment by doctors and management isn't excused by that, but I think it can be seen (partially) through that lens.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#214
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The travel nurse market is growing due to supply and demand problems. The demand for nurses is increasing as people are leaving and there are more from the boomer generation hitting an age where they need more care. The supply has stayed the same. Schools local to me have not increased output for various reasons (lack of instructors, lack of space in local hospitals where nurses train, etc). The supply is too low. So…

No, the solution is to pay nurses better. There are already tons of high quality nurses who don’t want to do it anymore because of poor pay in the face of demanding hospitals and patients.

pay, benefits, and hours

I suppose you could just pay people more money to make it worth it but the long hours take a toll in other ways as well and contribute to burnout no matter how much you get paid.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#215
post #17

While it's anecdote, every single peer in bedside medical care I know without exception has either left the field, or has immediate plans to as soon as student loan debt is repaid. The few older medical professionals in my family are simply sticking out the last few years until they can retire early. This was generally the case prior to pandemic due to how poor the work environment has become, but the pandemic seems…

Insurance companies. Everything is controlled by insurance companies. You can’t do anything unless it’s exactly how insurance wants and only for what insurance will pay. It limits everything, including how every profession can be compensated simply because you can’t easily hire somebody for more than what insurance will pay for their services. You can, but the funds have to come from somewhere.

No one wants to hear the truth.

There’s near-infinite demand for healthcare and a constrained (mostly artificially) supply.

Insurance, people and government can’t solve the problem of the supply and demand by throwing money on it.

You either expand supply or remove demand. Given removing demand is... not desirable. The only alternative to fix the issue is remove regulation and expand supply. That’s it.

Insurance makes the issue worse by increasing demand and in a way limiting supply through requirements and procedures.

Government limits supply through regulation AND expands demand by paying for procedures.

An approach is to deregulate, such as removing government licensing, remove Medicare, etc.

Imo Prices would drop >95% within a 2-5 years (to India or Mexico levels).

I worked in medical billing for a few years and the issues are beyond obvious.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#216
My wife was/is both an RN and a DNP in NYC during the entirety of the pandemic. I'm an Iraq infantry veteran. Our experiences are remarkably similar and there are major trends as to why there is unsustainable turnover.

1. Everyone pays lip service. People stand at airports and say thank you for your service the same way they open their windows at 7PM and start clapping and cheering during shift turnover. Sometimes they'll say they know people who are veterans or 'frontline healthcare workers' as a sign of solidarity

2. Nobody actually wants to hear what you went through. Hearing people die or knowing people are about to die in sometimes painful, unfortunate ways is too raw for people to try to seek out and understand, despite the fact that for a significant portion of the population that's how we're going to go out, in a hospital with all sorts of drugs pumped into our system

3. There's a constant barrage of emotional/mental harm. Believe it or not, you don't magically 'harden up' immediately. Absorbing/witnessing drastic outcomes gets easier, but the burden doesn't get lighter. This isn't to mention physical harm. People do all sorts of things out of desperation and frustration.

4. The systems that manage you are byzantine if not kafkaesque. You're never sure how the decisions are made, yet you're the one that will be paying the most for it. You know deep down that you're just a number on a spreadsheet, and the only reason that keeps you going is internal motivation to do what you think is right, so you push on

5. The people who can help rarely think about you. Very few politicians will mention your name or your union that is doing its best to get some kind of safe nurse:patient ratios or even get the hospital to pay for your scrubs that they mandate. Very few billionaires have mentioned healthcare workers or veterans at all. As a whole, until someone has an emergency that threatens their physical or financial status, healthcare and security is treated as a black box with unreal expectations and extra sensitivity to deviations from said expectations, despite a complete lack of introspection and information on how those expectations came to be

I don't know what the solution is. In healthcare, every system is so deeply connected to the rest that destroying one or even refactoring takes down everything else, and we need it to stay online. The same applies to the continuation of geopolitics by other means. You can give every IC the best EMR system, the best rifle and radio, the best monitor/laptop/keyboard, but it's all for nothing if the system as a whole is a dumpster fire. Her frustration is palpable every time she finishes a rough shift (probably 2 out of 3), and the best I can do is lend my ear and pour a glass of wine.

That being said, I am grateful that she is continuing on the path. Our shared experiences have brought us closer than ever.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#218
The number of people in the US who continue to defend the abhorrent health insurance system is absolutely mind-boggling. The level of brainwashing that pervades discourse about single-payer health insurance being some sort of communist plot is testament to some of th emost successful propaganda of all time.

What's worse is it belies an ugly aspect of human nature (particularly pervasive in the US IME) that people absolutely do not give a fuck about anyone else when it comes down to it. As long as someone is fortunate enough to have decent health insurance through their job, people who don't are lazy.

The big picture here is that the wealthy want people dependent on jobs and to be in debt (eg student debt) because it makes them compliant.

So I'm not surprised nurses are leaving. Insurance companies make providing healthcare an absolutely miserable business and deliberately killing people ("prior authorizations", "pre-existing conditions", etc) should not be the basis for commercial enterprise. Denying someone life-saving or life-changing care should not be a profit motive.

What's worse is that a lot of the burnout is effectively caused by people who are profoundly selfish and are voluntarily choosing to get sick and die of what is now a highly preventible disease.

It's a hard situation because people depend on nurses so collectively they're torn. Teachers OTOH aren't life-critical (but still obviously important) so I'd actually like to see them make a mass exodus over all the right-wing censorship they're facing in most states.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#219
post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

> This one is big for product designers.

You're right that there are definitely opportunities for improvement here. As a Product person that has worked in EMR/Healthcare IT systems, I can tell you the biggest challenge is most of the decisions are driven by legally-required compliance. In many cases, you literally cannot make it better because the brokenness is /by design/ to comply with the law.

Nearly across the board, especially in the US, our legal and regulatory climate has not kept up with technology and often actively works to the detriment of technical innovation and improving our systems.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#220
post #62

Most people work for money so I would take all this with a grain of salt. If you are a RN what are you going to do if not nursing? The same applies to all fields including Physicians.

There’s a huge labor shortage, they could do just about anything and get a pretty sizable bonus to sign up. I’ve heard $20k bonus for trucking, local transit agency is offering 7.5k to sign up as a bus driver, police nationwide are desperate and the requirements for the local agency consist of any 2 year degree + being willing to be drug tested, construction industry is trying to recruit women now, etc.

I’m not a nurse, so grain of salt and all that, but I think I’d rather be a nurse than any of those things. And except for (some) trucking, RNs generally get paid more than all of them, I think.

There’s a lot of white collar work that only requires a nonspecific college degree, but I’m not aware of such a high demand for for HR staff or accounts payable specialists.

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