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UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

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Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#211

Post by sofixa »

tinco wrote: post #88
sofixa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. What a load of Brexiteer crap. The UK was never subservient, they were among the top decision makers and powers in the EU. Brexit UK wants to have its cake and eat it too and is simply impossible. You can't be independent from the EU on trade and power simply bec…

Stop being so adverserial. Parent hasn't stated any pro-brexit sentiment so just assume they're arguing in good faith. The whole idea of the EU is that all nations in it are subservient to the commission. We like it that way because that makes the collaboration more rational and it makes the rising tide lift all the boats. Wether you agree with it or not, the idea of the Brexit is that the UK can be strong without th…

But they aren't arguing in good faith, because this bit:

> The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons

Is categorically and empirically false. The Commission doesn't have an ideology, and doesn't want subservience from anyone. Their job is cooperation and improvement.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#212

Post by Havoc »

fulafel wrote: post #161
Havoc wrote: post #74

Why not pump the energy into the EU grid at bottom and pull it out in the north?

If you sell in place a and buy back in place b, you might sometimes get less of it back for the same money.

Aka wheeling charges. Yes, though likely significantly less than the cost of building a cable around the EU

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#213

Post by jacquesm »

kkfx wrote: post #201
jacquesm wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conspiracy thinking isn't going to stop infrastructure projects from happening. For now. Fortunately.

Classify normal prudence as conspiracy is a classic move from those who try selling freezers to the Eskimo, if we follow such line why having an army and keep radar-monitoring the country and it's surrounding? Why put defibrillators anywhere, why put fire-extinguishers etc, why even design electrical wiring with as much sectioning and breakers as we do? Such "infra projects" are like, much like, the Desertech scam, a…

> Even an ally can do such sabotage just to generate a military response against a common enemy he want to aggress but can't do without allies and those allies are not much interested if not forced or even a simple self-inflicted damage to justify a war the public do not accept but some in the government/élites want...

No, this is not 'normal prudence', it is completely off-the-wall conspiracy stuff. If you think this is normal then that is really problematic.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#214

Post by tinco »

sofixa wrote: post #211
tinco wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop being so adverserial. Parent hasn't stated any pro-brexit sentiment so just assume they're arguing in good faith. The whole idea of the EU is that all nations in it are subservient to the commission. We like it that way because that makes the collaboration more rational and it makes the rising tide lift all the boats. Wether you agree with it or not, the idea of the Brexit is that the UK can be strong without th…

But they aren't arguing in good faith, because this bit: > The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons Is categorically and empirically false. The Commission doesn't have an ideology, and doesn't want subservience from anyone. Their job is cooperation and improvement.

> The Commission doesn't have an ideology, and doesn't want subservience from anyone. Their job is cooperation and improvement.

No, the commission does have an ideology, it's encoded in the Treaty of European Union. For example "founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities".

Also subservience is encoded in the treaties, for example when you sign the treaty you agree that the court of the European Union becomes your highest court, and that European law overrides your national law. Effectively any court decision can be overruled by the European Court of Justice if it conflicts with European law.

Besides the law there's all sorts of other restrictions where a nations interest are subservient to those of the union as a whole. Usually to prevent a nation from giving their local industries an edge over those in other European countries.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#215

Post by kkfx »

jacquesm wrote: post #213
kkfx wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classify normal prudence as conspiracy is a classic move from those who try selling freezers to the Eskimo, if we follow such line why having an army and keep radar-monitoring the country and it's surrounding? Why put defibrillators anywhere, why put fire-extinguishers etc, why even design electrical wiring with as much sectioning and breakers as we do? Such "infra projects" are like, much like, the Desertech scam, a…

> Even an ally can do such sabotage just to generate a military response against a common enemy he want to aggress but can't do without allies and those allies are not much interested if not forced or even a simple self-inflicted damage to justify a war the public do not accept but some in the government/élites want... No, this is not 'normal prudence', it is completely off-the-wall conspiracy stuff. If you think thi…

Did you read just last 100+ years history? Is it conspiracy? The Britannia was a conspiracy? Just to cite one. The public Cossiga statement (ancient Italian minister, well known criminal) that he like opposing manifestation because they are good target to few crooks who will crush cars, magazines, etc pushing the population against the protesters and justify the subsequent and purposely late police response, was conspiracy or history? Anne Morin classic "on war propaganda" to justify any crimes on their own side and depict the other side as diabolic and criminal is a classic book of propaganda or a conspiracy? Bernays campaign fro the United Fruit Co to overthought the legit and democratic government of Guatemala was history or what?

What you call conspiracy is normally named classic strategy by all who study and use it. So any normally prudent State do it's best to avoid creating potential threats potentially used against itself. Some do not just because those threats are corruption-fueled economy. And again we see countless examples in just the very recent history.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#216

Post by blibble »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #207
blibble wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s conveniently forget that Gibraltar is actually territorially part of Spain it is most definitely not it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war > The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he g…

> it handed it over in the peace treaty that ended the war The fact that it was taken by force in 1701 didn’t magically teleport it from Spain to anywhere where it made sense for it to be part of the UK. > meanwhile Spain has two enclaves of the exact same type of in Morocco, Ceuta and Melilla It’s not less shameful.

as you appear to be some alien from beyond the solar system

on Earth: previously political boundaries were set on the outcome of armed conflicts

Great Britain won the last one against Spain, and gained Gibraltar as a result over 300 years ago

these days we are slightly more enlightened and tend to mainly believe in self-determination

the people living in Gibraltar wish to remain British

giving them up to Spain against their wishes would be an act of imperialism (commonly frowned on in the 21st century)

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#218

Post by hokkos »

blibble wrote: post #17
35mm wrote: post #3

Why not the south of Spain? Just as much sun and more politically stable.

increasing energy dependence on the EU seems unwise given its attempts to use it for political leverage: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jers... the government agrees: https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-si... (and has denied construction of new interconnectors to France since) Spain would definitely use an interconnector as leverage re: Gibraltar

you don't know what you are talking about, lots of interconnectors are planned to EU : https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy...

Aquind cancellation is about financial stability of the developper, its russian origin, and politicals connections to the tories and also ecological interest groups lobbying on both side of the interconnector.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#219

Post by jacquesm »

kkfx wrote: post #215
jacquesm wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even an ally can do such sabotage just to generate a military response against a common enemy he want to aggress but can't do without allies and those allies are not much interested if not forced or even a simple self-inflicted damage to justify a war the public do not accept but some in the government/élites want... No, this is not 'normal prudence', it is completely off-the-wall conspiracy stuff. If you think thi…

Did you read just last 100+ years history? Is it conspiracy? The Britannia was a conspiracy? Just to cite one. The public Cossiga statement (ancient Italian minister, well known criminal) that he like opposing manifestation because they are good target to few crooks who will crush cars, magazines, etc pushing the population against the protesters and justify the subsequent and purposely late police response, was cons…

That something happened once doesn't mean you need to jump at every shadow or that you need to assume that every thing that we do needs to be hardened against every eventuality. Fortunately - for now - idiots in real life are still in relatively short supply. Contrasted with the internet where they are plentiful, witness the dumb attacks on mobile phone infrastructure once the crazies start to influence each other because 'they' are out to get them.

The cases you list are the exceptions, not the rule. Fact: undersea optical cables would be trivial to destroy. But as a rule they work well. Fact: water infrastructure, gas infrastructure and power infrastructure is vulnerable. But it actually works quite well. Fact: logistics infrastructure is fragile, as are most buildings. And yet, most of it seems to hold up quite well. Ok we get the occasional crazy person but that doesn't mean society grinds to a halt or that we are going to re-do all of our bridges, crossings and foundations.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#220

Post by kkfx »

jacquesm wrote: post #219
kkfx wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read just last 100+ years history? Is it conspiracy? The Britannia was a conspiracy? Just to cite one. The public Cossiga statement (ancient Italian minister, well known criminal) that he like opposing manifestation because they are good target to few crooks who will crush cars, magazines, etc pushing the population against the protesters and justify the subsequent and purposely late police response, was cons…

That something happened once doesn't mean you need to jump at every shadow or that you need to assume that every thing that we do needs to be hardened against every eventuality. Fortunately - for now - idiots in real life are still in relatively short supply. Contrasted with the internet where they are plentiful, witness the dumb attacks on mobile phone infrastructure once the crazies start to influence each other be…

> That something happened once doesn't mean you need to jump at every shadow or that you need to assume that every thing that we do needs to be hardened against every eventuality.

Hardened? No. Design to minimize unpleasant events? Yes. Just for instance did you lock your hose door? It's pointless since thief can still going in and locked or not the chance of being stolen it's not that much. Even that we still produce doors with keys to lock them, try finding a front door without in the market to discover it yourself.

> The cases you list are the exceptions, not the rule. Fact: undersea optical cables would be trivial to destroy. But as a rule they work well.

Sure because they are useful for all parties.

> Fact: water infrastructure, gas infrastructure and power infrastructure is vulnerable. But it actually works quite well.

And have seen a significant spikes in attacks... However again: just see Russian gas to the EU: both parties, with Ukraine as third can destroy the ducts, they do not do that simply because they are equally interested in them: Russia need to sell gas, they have already made the infra, they want money. EU need the gas, without it too many industries will stop. Ukraine use that gas itself and even if they decide to take the damage BOTH EU and Russia will be against them for the collateral damage they suffer.

Actually electricity from Morocco to UK, if cut touch nearly only the UK, so it's a potential target.

> Fact: logistics infrastructure is fragile, as are most buildings. And yet, most of it seems to hold up quite well.

Oh yeah, sure, so the big supply disruption so far is just a small issue in your opinion? In buildings term the fact that our cities can't evolve anymore and we need them evolved is not an issue, to a point we have made the ONU New Urban Agenda? Not counting the continuous debate of low quality buildings, in general, but more in particular big ones where issues might led to far bigger consequences...

> Ok we get the occasional crazy person but that doesn't mean society grinds to a halt or that we are going to re-do all of our bridges, crossings and foundations.

Sorry for keeping such rude tone up but we are actually re-do the society, it's a never-ending process and we are here in a bad shape also thanks to those who say "anything is well, we can continue toward infinitum".

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